Though you voted against the BJP Government, you said that you preferred Atal Behari Vajpayee to Sonia Gandhi...
I never said I preferred Vajpayee to Sonia Gandhi. It was my view that the Government of India should not be changed in the manner in which it was. Since it was a confidence motion, I would have had to declare that I had confidence in the Government. I could not have supported the Government because it had not done anything.

Itis true that I had reservations about Sonia Gandhi becoming prime minister. I had expressed this to close friends. The political situation has become vicious, and reached a flash point where the system of parliamentary democracy is threatened. In such an atmosphere, Sonia Gandhi coming to the forefront would have created more tension in the political system. That was my approach. I told friends in the Congress that they should not accelerate this process.

But what is your view about the basic demand that Sharad Pawar and others have raised, that only a natural-born Indian should hold high office?
In many countries, by tradition or by constitutional provision, those born of the soil hold high offices. I don't remember any instance when a person of foreign origin has made it to a top position, except in colonial rule. It cannot be imagined in a free society.

It is not against any ethical or moral principle. This question should have been discussed dispassionately. Unfortunately, this has become amatter of hysteria. People are burning effigies, and going to the point of self-immolations. This was not expected from a party of the tradition of the Congress. It seems we have reached a point when we cannot do anything without grace and dignity.

Do you think that nationality will be an issue in the election?
It depends on how far this controversy is dragged on. It has (been made) a campaign issue not by those who raised it but by those who have opposed it.

Pawar has called for a new national alternative. Will you back it?
I support any move to create a new force in Indian politics. The BJP and the Congress have put something before the country which is not very relevant to the present situation. The slogans of cultural renaissance and secularism are imaginary (issues). The real problem is the basic issues of the people. Any group which addresses these problems surely I shall support it.

So you feel that secular versus non-secular is no longer a relevantdebate?
Secularism is relevant, but not as a slogan behind which you conceal all other problems the people are facing. Secularism, in the narrow way in which it is discussed, is not healthy.

What do you mean by that?
It does not just mean being against religious fanaticism. In may view, any type of fanaticism, be it of region, caste, language creates tension in the people. Secularism is a way of life in which you tolerate other points of view.

Do you feel that the main target of attack should be the BJP or the Congress?
The fight should be against everything which is not Indian. Take for example the psychology that is being created in the country that certain nations of crisis they face. This is a cruel world. No one is going to rescue us from our problems. Self-reliance, swadeshi, swavalamban are not slogans. They are an economic strategy. We have an abundance of resources and manpower, and if we sacrifice and work hard, we can build a new future.

People like Tariq Anwarhave talked of a regrouping of Congressmen who at one time or another left the party...
I don't know who they are talking about. Anybody who is ready to work differently should be welcomed.

Congressmen, including yourself, walked out of the party in 1977, 1987 and then again in 1999. How is 1999 different from the past?
1977 took some time to develop. This has happened suddenly when elections are on the anvil, and there is not that much preparation. But then there is the modern media now, and with mistakes being committed which are shown on the electronic media all over the world, anyone with concern for the future of democracy would be feeling sad. This kind of viciousness -- beating, attempted self-immolations, hunger strikes -- is not done in a democracy (just) for one person to head the party. It shows the bankruptcy of the party itself. If a party depends on one person, how can it do anything?

Do you think the exit of Pawar, Sangma and Anwar will damage the Congress?
Towhat extent is the question. Sharad Pawar has his hold on Maharashtra. Some people have indicated that half of Maharashtra may go (with him). It all depends on what type of a combination is forged out of this episode.

Why is it that the moment your name is mentioned, people fear that you will upstage them in the bid for power?
I don't understand this, I have never gone to anyone. Sharad Pawar left, he called me. I have neither initiated a discussion with him nor been approached so far by anyone. It is being said that I stopped Mulayam Singh Yadav from supporting Sonia Gandhi. It is true that Mulayam Singh was of this view, I was also of this view. We discussed it, but he took his own decision.

What do you think Sonia should have done?
She should have discussed the issue with these three leaders and found out what was on their minds. She should not have allowed this hysteria to build up in the Congress. It will have an impact on the future of the party. It is neither helpful for theCongress nor healthy. But then, she does not need my advice.

You had a long meeting with her after the fall of the Government.
The initiative was hers. I will meet anyone who wants to meet me. She was graceful and dignified...

Who is going to join the new national front being envisaged?
It could include Mulayam, Laloo (Prasad Yadav), Sharad Pawar, BJD, Samata Party...

Samata?
Yes, they have been telling me to do this. Then there is (Ramakrishna) Hegde, Mamata (Banerjee), Deve Gowda and J.H. Patel. Yes there is G.S. Tohra, the National Conference, O.P. Chautala, the Loktantrik Congress, even the TDP.

Jayalalitha?
Yes, Jayalalitha, or if not her, then the DMK.

What about the BSP?
I don't think the BSP will come.

So it will be a platform of regional parties?
Maybe. The regional parties cannot be wished away. These are all emerging fores, the rising stars.

The group would have many contenders for leadership.
There is no harm inbeing a claimant.

Will there be a natural leader of this group?
There is no natural leader. But then Atal Behari Vajpayee is not the natural leader of the BJP. Sonia Gandhi is not the natural leader of the Congress. The era of natural leaders has gone. Natural leaders are those who emerge out of a movement.

But who will head such a group?
I can't say. There is no dearth of leaders.

Would you be ready to accept anyone?
I shall accept anyone -- Pawar, Mulayam, Mamata or Deve Gowda. I shall be leader, whether or not I am PM or MP.