BJP cant be a party of Hindu right. Then it will not succeed. But it can be a party of Indian (centre) right,which it should be

•Shekhar Gupta: Walking on the lawns. I think the second was in front of parliament and now. I think the context also changes with time. And we meet a slightly pained Brajesh Mishra right now. Is that so?

Brajesh Mishra: If you are talking of the election.

•Shekhar Gupta: Yes,not the party man I know,but still.

Brajesh Mishra: My views are that I am neither pro-BJP nor pro-Congress.

•Shekhar Gupta: Right.

Brajesh Mishra: I have a vision of India. I have a reading of what is the national interest and I go by that. S whatever I say is not the criticism of the BJP or the Congress. These results as they have come out,they have shown three tendencies. On is the fear of the electorate particularly the middle class.

•Shekhar Gupta: Fear in the minds of the electorate.

Brajesh Mishra: Yeah,of the Third Front. I mean when they looked at the scene or is it Mayawati who is going to become the Prime Minister or is Chandrababu Naidu or…

•Shekhar Gupta: Deve Gowda…

Brajesh Mishra: …or Deve Gowda or so and so,and they had no confidence in it.

•Shekhar Gupta: In fact they were paranoid.

Brajesh Mishra: They were worried that what will happen because they have had experience of this in 1989,1990. You remember VP Singh and Charan Singh et cetera and then Deve Gowda and Mr Gujral,and the situation wasnt very good. So they saw stability in the country when Mr Vajpayee became Prime Minister and remained so for six years and they saw stability when the Congress took over and Manmohan Singh became Prime Minister. Its a stable situation moving forward. Of course,problems here and there. So they were not ready to accept a situation where,you know a group of parties getting together …

•Shekhar Gupta: …And then deciding the Prime Minister

Brajesh Mishra: This was not acceptable to them. The second reason was,in my view,that the campaign of the BJP was a negative campaign. Congress is weak,they havent done this,they havent …,the internal security problem,terrorism problem,they have failed in all this,that kind of …. which did not go down well with the electorate. Because,obviously the other side was going to say,well,when you were in power you also had these terrorist incidents and what did you do at that time? So this negativeness of the campaign…

•Shekhar Gupta: and the third?

Brajesh Mishra: This negativeness was not accepted. And the third was the impression given during the campaign through the voices of Varun Gandhi and Narendra Modi of a very strident Hindutva which excluded everybody else,all other communities. Now Shekhar,perhaps you have heard me say this earlier that Hindu ethos does not go allow people to go beyond a limit. In Hindi,it is called Atti.

•Shekhar Gupta: Atti,yes,you cant exceed a limit.

Brajesh Mishra: Yes,the Hindu doesnt like it. And the statements coming out…

•Shekhar Gupta: You have said to me in personal conversations that you believe that parameters of Hinduism are moderate.

Brajesh Mishra: They are very moderate. And Hinduism has survived despite all the invasions in this country by Christians,Muslims and what not because of this ethos.

•Shekhar Gupta: And inclusiveness.

Brajesh Mishra: So because of this the kinds of statements which were made during the election campaign by Varun Gandhi in particular,and people were taken aback. And they also thought,what is it happening that as soon as there is a BJP government in Karnataka,you have this Ram Sena coming out,you have Bajrang Dal coming out,you have coming out this No pub culture

•Shekhar Gupta: And poor women being beaten up.

Brajesh Mishra: And Muslims being beaten up,Christians being beaten up. So,I mean the impression given was that this was not Hindutva,this was something else.

•Shekhar Gupta: Right. So what you are saying is that an ordinary Hindu would find a repugnant. He doesnt want to go out and beat up Muslims or Christians or women drinking in a pub or maybe just sitting in a pub.

Brajesh Mishra: No,he doesnt want to do that,and I am going to go further than that. This ethos has affected the Indian Muslims also.

•Shekhar Gupta: When you say affected,you say in a positive way?

Brajesh Mishra: Yeah,in a positive way. I mean,you can not say today that more than .001 percent of the Muslim population is a Jehadi element or anything like that. You cant say that because this thinking of Hinduism,this moderation has also affected Muslims and Christians.

•Shekhar Gupta: So that is why so few of Indian Muslims have become Jehadis,so few,I mean hardly any. You can count them…

Brajesh Mishra: The other point we must keep in mind is that in order to substantiate what I am trying to say is that the Congress party wasnt re-elected because of Muslim vote,it is the Hindu vote.

•Shekhar Gupta: Yes,yes.

Brajesh Mishra: I mean,of course,it may have benefited in a few constituencies here and there where Muslims are in large numbers or Christians here and there also but those are very small,you know,a fraction of the victory. The Hindus vote it was. So your message of Hindutva,howsoever you might define it,did not get across to the Hindu electorate which voted for Congress,which voted for stability.

•Shekhar Gupta: Why? Because,you know,the same electorate bought a message from the same party before 2004. What went wrong this time? Only Varun Gandhi and Modi?

Brajesh Mishra: you see,you have to go back a little more than 2004 or 1999. You have to go back to the Shah Bano case. That was,if I may say so,Atti of a different kind and that is when the support for the BJP started to grow. Then after that came the Ram Mandir,and you know,all those various things which contributed to (its growth). But BJP,on its own,could never have come to power. So it had to have an alliance with other partners who insisted that you cant have Ram Mandir or …

•Shekhar Gupta: Article 370 or Common Personal Law,yes…

Brajesh Mishra: Or anything like that,you see. So BJP had to moderate its agenda in order to get the support of the allies to do that and people accepted that.

•Shekhar Gupta: Right. And even BJPs traditional voters accepted that.

Brajesh Mishra: That was accepted,yes. This time it didnt.

•Shekhar Gupta: Did you get the impression that they moved away from the moderate agenda?

Brajesh Mishra: I can not say that the top leadership moved away. I can not say that. No,they didnt. But there were others like Varun Gandhi who sent out a message and when they were not censured by the BJP leadership then people began to wonder.

•Shekhar Gupta: Or disowned?

Brajesh Mishra: Yeah,disowned.

•Shekhar Gupta: What would have been the right course for the BJP leadership when Varun Gandhi made those speeches?

Brajesh Mishra: To completely disassociate itself from them.

•Shekhar Gupta: And not give him a ticket?

Brajesh Mishra: Not give him a ticket,of course.

•Shekhar Gupta: And is that how Mr Vajpayee would have handled it,since you know his mind?

Brajesh Mishra: I can not say how he would have handled it. He might just have called him and advised him to say something to counter what he had said.

•Shekhar Gupta: To make amends?

Brajesh Mishra: To make amends. He might have done that or the other,I cant really say that but he wouldnt have liked it.

•Shekhar Gupta: He might have found it as repugnant as you do?

Brajesh Mishra: Well I cant use the word repugnant for him but I use it for myself. But I dont think it would have been to his liking at all.

•Shekhar Gupta: Right. Because that is not the way he took BJP to a larger support base?

Brajesh Mishra: No. Of course,it was a much different situation for him. All his life he was known as a moderate personality and towards the end of his active political life he was no longer a politician,he was a statesman as he is today. Unfortunately,physically he is not able to… But he is a statesman. There is no other statesman in the country today except Mr Vajpayee.

•Shekhar Gupta: And in the BJP?

Brajesh Mishra: He handled BJP in a way which brought it to power although ion alliance with many others.

•Shekhar Gupta: So the BJP has not been able to fill that gap?

Brajesh Mishra: Well you have been listening to voices saying that Atalji was an acceptable man,this and that et cetera — indirect,lets say,hints from here and there

•Shekhar Gupta: From BJP leaders?

Brajesh Mishra: No,from the allies. Although,of course,the allies formally accepted Mr Advani as the Prime Ministerial candidate but,for Atalji it was a party which was inclusive of others not exclusive.

•Shekhar Gupta: But did it any messages go out now that made it look like the party had moved away from its idea of inclusion?

Brajesh Mishra: Well I have just given you the examples as to how it moved away from it.

•Shekhar Gupta: You know Brajeshji,I have said this,in fact I have said this in writing also that the BJPs tragedy is that this country needs a party which is right of centre but BJP is not able to choose firmly whether it wants to be a right of centre party or it wants to be the party of Hindu right. I know you will say that you are not a BJP man but you have seen BJP leaders from very close. You worked with the BJP foreign policy cell before the party came to power. Do you think that contradiction remains,that dilemma remains?

Brajesh Mishra: You know there was a change in that kind of thinking when BJP came into power at the centre because it can not but affect you that for the sake of power you have given up Ram Mandir,Article whatever it is and Uniform Civil Code. What is that? Doesnt it affect you? It does.

•Shekhar Gupta: It does. I mean,if you believe in the philosophy and then you know that you have given up something that is dear to you.

Brajesh Mishra: So there is no doubt that there are,I would say,substantial number of people in the BJP who are of the same view that I am expressing: moderation,inclusiveness,dont go beyond a certain limit.

•Shekhar Gupta: But how come all of them were silent,you know,how come there wasnt,you know,because BJP also has internal democracy,much more than the Congress does. How come these voices were not heard when the Varun Gandhi episode happened,when all this tamasha was happening in Karnataka?

Brajesh Mishra: Well,I do believe one or two leaders came put publicly.

•Shekhar Gupta: Not enough,or if they did how come they didnt make impact?

Brajesh Mishra: This is the mistake,in my view,which the BJP committed. It should have,officially,moved itself away from Varun Gandhi. Now,my view was,of course,that the Election Commission was quite wrong in making that suggestion to BJP. It has no business to.

•Shekhar Gupta: That was our editorial view as well.

Brajesh Mishra: It shouldnt have done that and that made it more difficult for the BJP to do that. But if the BJP wanted to give the impression of inclusiveness,of a moderate party…

•Shekhar Gupta: Then they should have cut their losses then.

BM Yeah,at that point,and they didnt do it.

•Shekhar Gupta: And how should the BJP have handled Modi?

Brajesh Mishra: Well,that is a very difficult situation for an outsider to talk about. But one must keep in mind that even in Gujrat in the Lok Sabha elections,the Congress,I believe,lost only one seat from what it had in 2004.

•Shekhar Gupta: Which was a very healthy number actually.

Brajesh Mishra: Which probably means that some rethinking has to be done. I point which I would like to make,otherwise I would be misunderstood,is that this country needs BJP. It needs to national parties which can alternate…

•Shekhar Gupta: But both should be close to the centre,the ideological centre,one a bit to the left,one a bit to the right.

Brajesh Mishra: it has to be. If either party goes too far on one side,as I said to you,the Hindu majority is not going to accept it. So the country needs the BJP. Otherwise,if the BJP were to somehow disappear or something similar were to happen. I certainly dont want it to happen but if that were to happen then within four to five years the regional forces will once again begin to come forward and we will have a very very unstable situation in this country. The problem is,as you have seen in the case of Sri Lanka in Tamil Nadu,the problem is that what is national interest is not taken into account by those who belong to national parties. And,therefore,you need national parties. I would say the communists are,of course,nationalists in that sense that they think of the all India picture.

•Shekhar Gupta: Well,I think they are internationalists. They look at the global picture.

Brajesh Mishra: But,unfortunately,they are not strong enough to do this. So it is only the BJP which can stand along with the Congress.

•Shekhar Gupta: What you are saying is the Communists can not be the second pole of Indian politics?

Brajesh Mishra: They can not be.

•Shekhar Gupta: They simply dont have the reach,so you need BJP?

Brajesh Mishra: You need BJP.

•Shekhar Gupta: But I will go back to that question. BJP as a party of the centre-right or BJP as a party of the Hindu right?

Brajesh Mishra: well I see no difference between the two.

•Shekhar Gupta: No,when you say Hindu right then you back to Ram Mandir,Article 370,Uniform Personal Law.

Brajesh Mishra: If that is your meaning then no,it can not be a party of the Hindu right. Then it will not succeed. But it can be a party of Indian right,which it should be.

•Shekhar Gupta: Indian right or centre right.

Brajesh Mishra: Whatever. So you have two parties.

•Shekhar Gupta: Just like Republicans and Democrats and Conservatives and Labour?

Brajesh Mishra: That is right. The other point that is important today,for national interest,is that the government should not forget that the BJP is the opposition party and the cooperation with BJP is very necessary in order to run the country. You shouldnt take it that we have now come to the power,we have 200 or 300 or whatever the number and therefore,we can do whatever we want. Because,in my view,when the UPA came to power in 2004,it regarded the BJP as an untouchable party.

•Shekhar Gupta: Enemy.

Brajesh Mishra: Untouchable. More than enemy. Untouchable. We have nothing to do with it and they had to pay for it. The nuclear deal and …

•Shekhar Gupta: Because if they had treated the BJP better they would have been able to persuade them to their point of view in the nuclear deal?

Brajesh Mishra: Well,at least what should have happened,in my view,is that as soon as the agreement or the joint statement was issued there and the Prime Minister came back here he should have called immediately the leader of opposition which was Mr Advani. Instead,for political reasons or for reasons of running the coalition his main dialogue was with the left parties.

•Shekhar Gupta: But they say,when we ask them this question,they say that they were talking with you?

Brajesh Mishra: Well,I am not BJP and I said this number of times.

•Shekhar Gupta: To them also?

Brajesh Mishra: To them,and I said this number of times to the Prime Minister himself that I am not BJP.