Opinion ‘Big powers should go to the ground in Libya,get the UN peacekeepers there; not just make statements’

SG: So is Maldives.
Yes,tourism has been good last year,so we have had growth again. But now our main issue is social protection.

SG: Because you get almost three times of your population as tourists.
We have nearly about a million tourists coming.

SG: And nearly three hundred fifty thousand people in all,that’s your population.
But we have a big disparity in income. The bulk of the wealth has been always held by a handful of people,which is fairly common in many places. So the need for a social protection programme is very high. Since we have come into government,we have laid a safety net and we are now spending 10 per cent of our budget on social protection.

SG: And your budget is about a billion dollars only. But it is a lot because your per capita income is almost three and half times as much as India’s.
Because we are so small,our budget is just a billion. Because all 200 islands need sewerage,water,harbours,roads,schools,health centres. The amount of infrastructure required is quite substantial. That,in many instances,is far beyond our means and on top of all that,we have just started having climate change issues,especially coastal erosion. Coastal protection is again very expensive. To do that on one island would cost us about $5 million. We need a fair amount of funds. We have to fend for ourselves and we have to do that ourselves.

SG: You are a marine engineer by training,so you know what goes on there.
Well yes,I did that in university,it’s never been my speciality. We grew up going to the sea all the time and always having a swim.

SG: If you permit me to take you far away from Maldives and if I ask you,because you are such a veteran of struggling for democracy,freedom and individual rights,how do you see what is happening on the streets of the Middle East—what the Western media calls the Arab street…
It’s remarkable. For the last 100 years,Maldives’ rulers have tried to emulate Egypt—Gayoom (Abdul Gayoom,President of Maldives from 1978-2008) and even before that. There were rulers who were studying in Egypt. So what we had in Maldives was a laboratory case that could have been lifted off from many places. What they need now in the Middle East,in my mind,is that they need to build political parties.

SG: You have supported the movement in the Middle East…
We have always supported movements in any country. When people want to be free,we will always support them. It’s very important for development there that they have free and fair elections,that they have strong political parties. In the absence of strong political parties,it’s going to be very difficult to protect the freedoms that you want.

SG: You had to go into exile to build your own political party.
I had to,but the Egyptians don’t have to. You must be able to gain from our own experiences. The Egyptians can now quickly start their party in Egypt,the Tunisians can do that…Libya,of course,is in a different state. The UN should now be thinking about peace-keeping in Libya,on-the-ground intervention there. It’s very disturbing…the whole thing.

SG: And fighter planes being used against your own people…
Everyone is talking about their nationals,we are all humans and sovereignty can’t be played over humanity. It’s disturbing to see everyone talking only about their nationals.

SG: India wanted to evacuate its own,people should be talking more about Libyans.
People should be talking about Libya,people should be talking about people. You kill an Indian,you kill a Libyan,what difference does that make? You killed someone. It’s very important we find a solution and we have to be able to contain Col Gaddafi.

SG: This completely destroys a Western-origin myth that somehow there is a contradiction between Islam and democracy.
No,there is no contradiction between Islam and democracy. We are a 100 per cent Muslim country,we have been able to galvanise people for political activism,we have been able to amend our Constitution,we have been able to build political parties,we have had free and fair presidential,parliamentary and local elections,we have separated powers,we have a vibrant,independent media,we have all the fundamental rights. All that requires organised space for organised political activity. In the absence of that,you will always find underground movements and very often theocracy or extreme religious ideas…

SG: Because theocracy or religious idea are the refuge of dictators rather than being the other way round.
It is just a camouflage of a standard dictatorship and you just want to dictate in the name of God now. It never was there. If you had ever tried to reach out to the people,the Egyptian people,the Libyan people,the Syrian people,the Middle Eastern people,it would have been a different story. I feel Israel,Middle East peace issues will be much more easily dealt in a free and democratic country. We have had a number of contacts with Israel…

SG: You’ve been very brave,you have recognised Israel…
That’s because the people have no issue on that. You’ve been talking to the wrong people,who are the leaders,who have a very weak link with the people.

SG: But wasn’t there an impression that there was a widespread popular anger at your reaching out to Israel?
Well,there is always organised opposition and there should be and we can always talk about it,we can always give our point of view. I can’t see the difference between an Indian doctor and an Israeli doctor…

SG: But people said you are trying to rewrite history on your own without telling anybody,without taking your Parliament and your people into confidence.
We have just had our first local elections,in a sense a mid-term election,and we won. The Parliament is very vibrant,it’s just been elected. I was an MP in the past,I always got arrested for whatever I said. Human rights for me is very important,my rule is not,but democracy is. It is important to entrench democracy not for me,not for us,but for our children. That’s our single biggest project.

SG: So what’s your advice to big Western powers that have influence in the Middle East?
Go to the ground,stay there,get the UN peacekeepers in Libya on the ground; not just statements. People are talking about sanctions,they can’t already import anything.

SG: Do you believe Gaddafi is now history?
No,I don’t.

SG: You think he can stay on?
Because he has survived the last 3-4 days,I’m very jittery,I’m not so sure.

SG: But he should go?
Certainly,there is no doubt about that. But to assume he is gone is wrong.

SG: So you think it is the responsibility of the rest of the world to ease his departure?
It is,it is the responsibility of every single Indian,Maldivian and every single citizen to make sure that at the end of the day,we don’t have a headline saying ‘500,000 people dead in Libya,aerial bombing in Libya’.

SG: I’m amazed with the passion with which you speak,you are a truly globalised leader of a very small country. You have the ability to look way beyond your shores.
We are very small,but we are in the middle of the Indian Ocean and whatever happens to the world has always had a very strong impact on Maldives. We are very linked,we are also very linked to Libya,the Middle East,India. The smaller you are,the wider you want to look. India is so big that it’s a world by itself. So,we have to look far.

SG: What’s happening also brings out the Islamic societies in a positive light,it breaks many stereotypes.
It does. Finally,we will be able to show Islam for what it is. It is a highly sophisticated,intellectual life and it’s highly attractive as well.

SG: You are a devout Muslim too.
I am a practicing Muslim,but I don’t think that necessarily narrows my thinking or my attitude or my interactions with anyone.

SG: In Maldives,you have had to balance Islam and a purely Islamic population with influences that beach tourism brings in.
Traditionally,we were Sufi Muslims,so therefore we are very liberal in outlook. But in the ‘70s,we had Wahhabism coming in and in the late ‘70s,Gayoom came to power; he came from Egypt. And then there was always this tendency to use religion or verses from the Quran to justify yourself or your actions. Some other leader might say ‘for development’,Gayoom would say ‘for God’.

SG: I was with the first batch of Indian paratroopers who flew from Agra in 1988 to break the coup,when Gayoom was saved. And I believe he got saved because when his palace was under attack,he escaped with the cordless telephone and was able to call the PM’s office in Delhi. It was very different then. Malé was very different,it was so small…In retrospect,do you think India did the right thing?
I do.

SG: Even though Gayoom was not your favourite person…
Gayoom is not in the equation at all. India saved a developing political system,which took a fair amount of time to reach where we have reached now. We had our first Constitution in 1932,so we have had a Parliament for a long time,but we never had political parties. So Indian intervention was to avert the coup,to protect and maintain the system. Of course,it is sad that we could have saved 15 years if we had gone to elections at that time and allowed political parties. But in hindsight,you can say so many things. But I think India did the right thing and Maldivians will always be thankful,especially to Rajiv Gandhi. Mr Gandhi was personally looking into how Maldives was faring. Even now,one of the refreshing things about India is that it listens. It really listens to small countries.

I think that’s a great compliment to India. But I thought we Indians generally never listen to anybody,we only talk.

I’m sure Prime Minister Manmohan Singh listens a lot. I met many leaders from other big nations also,but you can sense that it’s not only listening,but the feeling that you are listened to. And that,I feel,is a very good quality in India. Now that India is rapidly developing,I think it’s very important that we plug into India and it’s also very important that India takes the region along with it.

SG: I see now that a lot of Indian businessmen are coming to Maldives. GMR is building your new airport through an international competitive bidding,we have some people running resorts. So Indians are doing well in Maldives.
They are. More of them should come,it’s a nice place. We all like the sea side,I’m sure Indians would like the sea side,it’s an excellent holiday.

SG: You’re a great ambassador for your country’s tourism. But also,climate change… from where did that idea of holding the Cabinet under water come?
We understood the gravity of climate change. Then how do you try to impress upon the international community the gravity of the situation? We don’t have the means to run expensive campaigns like the oil companies. We don’t have the money,so we thought we would have to think out of the box.

SG: You must have the fittest Cabinet in the world.
We did three days of training,but a fair amount of our Cabinet are elderly also.

SG: So,did any of them drop out?
No,no…all of them did the training. We were all under water,we Maldivians are sea creatures.

SG: And now Maldivians are more conscious of the threat that climate change poses.
It’s a real threat. It’s in the present,not something in the future. We have 16 islands where we have to relocate the people because of erosion. Water table is being contaminated by salt water,so we are having to desalinate a lot of water. We are now on top of our development effort. We are now having to increase another 20 per cent just to address climate change adaptation issues.

SG: But more than that,what you do is by talking about this,you are also providing a global leadership on this issue. So in more ways than one,you are now reaching out way beyond your islands.
We have to be broadminded. I keep telling our people,‘Start thinking outside your beach line’. An island is so small and if your thoughts and ideas are constrained to that geography,you can’t survive. So you have to increase you horizon,have a look at the bigger picture. What happens to you is really not because of anything you do,but because of what is happening in the bigger picture.

SG: President Nasheed,it’s been inspirational chatting with you. It’s wonderful to see a democratically elected leader so young and thinking of issues so far and wide and so boldly because what you say about Libya,Middle East,I’m sure a lot of people,specifically in the Islamic world,are now watching. You are also an inspiration for democracy and modern thinking. I hope to meet again. I hope to come to Maldives again in happier circumstances,always.
Thank you.

Transcribed by Tulika Ojha