• When did you realise that she had done it for self-preservation?

The worst part was the censorship of the press. I did not like it when the freedom of the press was attacked. That’s when she lost her political grip. And that’s why she lost that election. Otherwise, of what worth was that man, Raj Narain? He was a big fool.

• Never call a Lohiaite a fool.

I did not say all of them were fools. Look at George Fernandes. What was he then and what is he now? Then he was a staunch politician. Now he has no definite thinking. He was a Lohiaite then. Not now. Lohia was a hard nut to crack. But today, these (his followers) are all walnuts. You can crack them with your hands.

• You went to see Sanjay Gandhi on one of your rare visits to Delhi.

But the Emergency was not the subject of the meeting. Buta Singh, the sports minister at that time, called me up and told me that Sanjay wanted to meet me. When I went to see him, he asked me about Rajni Patel. I told him he was a nobody. I then asked Sanjay if it was true the Shiv Sena was going to be banned. He asked, “No, who told you?”

• Was this during the Emergency?

Perhaps yes. Later, I met Indira Gandhi and she had a list of organisations to be banned. There was some Muslim organisation and the RSS. Shiv Sena was the third to be banned. Then, she took a pen and struck off Shiv Sena from the list, asking, “Who put this name here?’

... contd.