I have no view on that but I have great respect for the position she took on the issue of prime ministership on one hand, and relative to the office of profit on the other. I feel very proud of her as my sister.

• Did you expect her to do this, particularly giving up the prime ministership, knowing her?

Yes I think so. Because I think she has one quality, and which most women have relative to men in that sense: her ability to assess herself is very truthful. I think she declined the prime ministership also because she realised that by accepting it she would be opening a Pandora’s box where people would be attacking only one side of hers. Who would not be talking about anything to do with her as a person...

• Or her performance.

Ignoring the fact, and this is of course even more typical of Indian tradition, ignoring the fact that in our tradition post-kanyadaan the bride takes the gotra of her husband.

• There are those who put it this way, that she is able to think more clear-headedly because her European mind is able to think linear rather than in the circular, spaghetti-like way in which Indians think. (Both laugh)

May be so. I have never spoken to her or anybody...

• And the fact that she was deeply unhappy with Rajiv’s joining politics is true?

Yes, she was. She perhaps had a sense of what’s coming. One thing was that they had a very good, happy, comfortable, togetherly life, and she knew once the politics business began all that would change. And it did.

• And she paid a very heavy price for it.

She paid a very heavy price for it. Her children paid a price.

• And could you have then imagined, or could Rajiv have imagined, that she would join politics?

I could not have imagined. I don’t know if Rajiv ever thought about these things. I doubt very much if he could have imagined it either.

• But you’ve never had any communication with the family since you left?

We have met a couple of times, and whenever we have met it has been very pleasant, there has been no rancour. But there is that distance which hurts.

• Can anything bridge that?

I don’t think it can now. It could have been bridged if Rajiv was there, if Rajiv had bridged it. But for her to bridge it would be something of a betrayal on her own part to Rajiv.

• It is intriguing because you came back thrice. And each time you came back there were these inventive designations for you: Minister of State for the Defence Research & Development Organisation, Chairman of the Committee on Defence Expenditure, Security Adviser to the Defence Minister. You have come back in three capacities, and each time you came right back here. Why? Did you again get disillusioned?

No, no. In all these capacities, there was a clear understanding that I was there for a specific task: to relook at and make recommendations on new methods, new structures of managing defence, and when that task was over I would go back. And I should say it here without reservation that one of the finest people I have ever worked with was Mr Jaswant Singh. Mr Jaswant Singh is a BJP man. I hold no love for his party, I do not share any of their ideologies but I worked for him for nearly two-and-a-half years...

• At a minimal salary...

At a minimal salary. And he was gentleman enough never once to raise politics with me. And I’ll never forget that.

• Did you ever raise politics with him, for example when Gujarat happened?

I had left by that time. By the time Gujarat happened we had become friends. He was not a friend when I first went there. We knew each other, we were acquaintances. When Gujarat happened we were friends. I was incensed then, and I am incensed now at what in some form or fashion continues to take place in our country, and I did voice my concern to him. But I also realized it was his party, and it had to deal with it in their own way, and the government of India had to deal with it in its own way. But I did voice my concern.

• Going back to Rajiv’s time: one of his memorable lines was, ‘We are the Beatles generation.’ He counted you in that generation, right? The thing about the Beatles generation is it never gets old. So what do you see happening with yourself, what do you see yourself doing?

I have reached a point in my life where I don’t think the doing matters any more. I am more concerned with the living. I have responsibilities towards my children. Ramola and I have a wonderful life here.

• If there is another political crisis, or emergency of the Gandhi family, and your phone rings again, will you come back? Because to some of us it seemed as if you didn’t care.

It is not that I don’t care. I draw a distinction between a political emergency and a national emergency. If there is an emergency concerning India I am always available. But as far as politics is concerned, it is best left to those who know it best... I have one regret — that we have not, in respect to our interests, defence and the security of India, attempted to go into any depth in the requirement of change...

• And your reports are still reports...

Reports are still reports, but even if those reports were inadequate...and I am not claiming any monopoly on competence or wisdom...the fact that we can continue to pretend that the world has not changed, that the concept of war has not changed, that weapons have not changed, the technology of war has not changed, men have not changed, aspirations have not changed, and all systems, procedures, concepts must continue as they did in 1947...

• Or the first world war... people say the last battle of World War I was won by India in Kargil.

Right. That fact alone is the cause of much fear, anger. I feel deeply disturbed by it. Because it is not difficult, it is not expensive, not beyond our capability.

• But again, it is the system’s immune reaction. System with a capital S.

Partly the immune system but much more. It is lack of leadership. There is no question in my mind that politicians must lead by example, not by consensus, not by discussion.

• Did you get the feeling with Rajiv that he looked too much for consensus?

No. That was one big difference. He was a leader.

• He was decisive?

Yes. He understood the concept of technology, he understood the concept of change. He was a young man.

• Do you have a regret that you could have said something to Rajiv that perhaps could have made the story end differently, for you and for him?

I can’t frankly think of anything off the cuff. I perhaps could have done a better job at the Ministry of Defence but that is also a function of hindsight, age, greater wisdom, more experience.

• It is said you and General Sundarji almost took India to war.

This is all poppycock, this is the joy of rumour. It was never on the cards, there was no possibility, and I’m very clear on this that the Pakistan government was fully aware of the fact. It was just a game.

• Zia just needed an excuse to come and watch cricket in Jaipur?

More than that, to play out a game in India. And in my understanding he did reasonably well.

• They got the better of us?

In the public relations exercise, yes. But on the ground, definitely not.

• There was never going to be a war?

There was never going to be a war.

• I know you were among a group of Indians and Pakistanis involved in 1987 who got together later and this came up...

What was very interesting was they had on their side General Arif, who was the de facto chief of Army staff in Pakistan because General Zia was the president. The Pakistani intelligence had stolen, as it were, something called Brass Tacks 1, which was a map exercise, and had nothing to do with the ground exercise Brass Tacks 2. They decided it corresponded to Brass Tacks 2 and so carried out the game.

• So it was nothing like you and Sundarji poised with guns and tanks on the border?

Not at all. Because being what we are, there was no attempt to understand how the Ministry of Defence works, the methodologies and cross-checks and balances. Brass Tacks was conducted by the Chiefs of Staff committee, chaired by Admiral Ram Tahiliani, of which General Sundarji was a member. The navy, army and air force were all part of the exercise. All anyone had to do was ask the general if he was planning to attack Pakistan and he would have said there was no such possibility. The whole exercise was conducted along an axis of a link canal of the Indira Gandhi canal in Rajasthan. In order for us to cross that canal we would have had to carry our bridging equipment. The Pakistanis knew we did not have bridging equipment with us. It was in the depot. We could not have crossed our own canal. To give you another example: there are four lines of ammunition. The Brass Tacks troops were issued only one line of ammunition. The other three were in dumps.

• I can see that matters military still light up your face. But before we conclude, if you could say one thing to Sonia today what would it be?

I would beg of her: form a vision of India, without worrying about the politics of how that vision is to be achieved. If the vision is there, the politics will fall into place...

To give one example, we’ve reached a point where a group of parties who call themselves the Left are blocking many alternative leaps forward. They have power, in these terms, without responsibility. And the government, on the other hand, is reliant upon them to hold on to power. Unless this dam breaks somewhere, we are stuck.

• You think she has it in her to break this?

I think so.