‘Aruna Roy principles,combined with Anna desire,govt desire,can give us wonderful bill’

And nothing changes in your life. You know,just a couple of days back you had your farewell at Infosys and I still see you wearing the Infosys shirt.

You can’t take Infosys out of me… It’s like your daughter.

But sir,are you also gloomy like so many in the country?

I am,yes. I am saddened because we are at a point today where there is that old man who is 74 years old — his health is not good,he is fasting. We have a government which consists of a lot of well-intentioned people. The Prime Minister wants corruption to be fought like Annaji wants.

And they are both clean people.

They are both clean people. There is no doubt about it. And from my own interactions with the UPA president,Mrs Sonia Gandhi,she is a very open-minded person,very courteous,very concerned about the country. And therefore,in spite of all these wonderful people coming together on a mission,somehow we have let the situation come to this point. I think it’s very sad.

How did this happen,sir? You managed tens of thousands of people and clients and businesses. What has gone wrong,do you think?

Well,I think,first of all,we must all recognise that we are at a unique point in the economic history of India. For the first time in the last 300 years or so,India has received some respect from the international community. For the first time in the 60 years after Independence,there is a certain level of confidence that we will indeed solve the problem of poverty,we will indeed bring inclusive and equitable growth. Therefore,at this point,every well-meaning Indian will have to say that we will do whatever is necessary to fight corruption. Because corruption creates uncertainties,corruption takes away confidence,corruption creates a bad impression for the country. Therefore,the government,the opposition parties,the business community,civil society,all of us have to come with one voice,one mind and one soul to say that we will root out corruption.

And at this point of time,somehow,we created a situation where it was seen as civil society versus the government. And number two,I think all of us must realise corruption in some way takes away our fundamental rights. Let’s say,if I go to register my property and the sub-registrar wants some money and therefore he delays doing it. What he is actually doing is,he is compromising my right to property. Therefore,corruption in essence is compromising our fundamental rights. I feel that all of us had realised it and had created an environment of harmony,courtesy and dignity in discussions,and both parties had to go there with a spirit of give and take — both Annaji’s team and the government interlocutors.

But somehow that was not done. It became a situation of tu tu main main,anger,name-calling.

Unfortunately. Given that both parties are good people,both parties are interested in reducing corruption,it’s sad that we have reached this point.

Who is more at fault in letting these negotiations become so unpleasant?

Well,I don’t want to go into the past. As I said at my farewell speech,they were expecting me to speak about all the past,about reminiscing,all of that. I said no. The past is dead and gone,I want to use the lessons of the past to act better in the present to create a brighter future. Therefore,all that I would say is this: it’s not too late. We have to create an environment where there is confidence in Annaji and confidence in the government that we can hold discussions in a way that we will come out with a Lokpal Bill that makes everybody happy. It is possible. To do that,I only wish both parties create a committee of highly respected,non-political individuals — some retired bureaucrats,some retired judiciary people,some academicians.

Civil society.

Absolutely. If they did that — and I have a feeling that it would be acceptable to both parties — then this committee can sit down and quickly,maybe in a matter of a week or so,come out with a Lokpal Bill that is acceptable to all the people and then pass it on to the standing committee. Because,at the end of the day,we have to go through parliamentary procedure. We can’t compromise the power of Parliament.

That’s now becoming a discussion — saying Parliament doesn’t matter,standing committee doesn’t matter,just pass it.

No,that is not right. I have a lot of respect for Annaji,I have a lot of respect for members of his team,but I don’t think so. Then we will be hurting ourselves in the long run.

Because well-meaning as they may be,tomorrow this precedent may be used by people who are not well-meaning.

Exactly. We can’t afford to do that. However,we can’t say they are undemocratic because Nehru,in August 1962,almost 50 years ago,said democracy is not just about Parliament at the top; democracy is all about empowering people at the lowest level. He was addressing state ministers of the Panchayati Raj and he himself said that. Therefore,it is not proper to say it is undemocratic. As long as it is peaceful,as long as there is give and take,it is fine.

But do you think it can still be done in a way that preserves Parliament’s dignity?

It is extremely important that we preserve the dignity of Parliament,that nobody should compromise the power of Parliament. Because the day we do it,our democracy is finished.

Are you concerned that we are headed that way right now,if you watch the negotiations right now?

Looks like we are headed in that direction. But I only wish that all the well-meaning people who are actors in this drama come out and say,let us select a group of people who are acceptable to the government and to Annaji’s team,let these people take three months,let them hold lots of discussions,let them come out with a Lokpal Bill that is acceptable to all the parties. Then they can submit it to the standing committee. Because I don’t think this can be done in half a day,a day when that respected old man is fasting,when his health is not good.

So how large should this committee of eminent people be?

I think maybe 9 or 11 people should be sufficient. They should all be non-politicians,because then nobody can say they have vested interests. As long as they are not politicians,as long as these are people who are highly respected by civil society,as long as both Annaji’s team and the government have a hand in picking the 11 people — and give them three months — I am positive we will come out with a good Lokpal.

It may be tougher to find talent to fill this 11 than to fill the Indian cricket team right now.

I hope this isn’t as bad as the Indian cricket team right now… In a nation of 1.2 billion people,if we can’t pick 11 respected people,then it’s a sad commentary of the country. I am very confident that we can get the 11 people because today its has become government versus Annaji.

And it must not become Parliament versus Annaji in any case?

It cannot become. I don’t think Annaji would want to subvert the power of Parliament because he is too much of a patriot. He understands democracy,he has understood the power of peaceful protests. Therefore,I think peaceful protest is fine,but parliamentary democracy requires that Parliament is supreme,that a standing committee has its rule,and that we put forward to this standing committee a good draft.

So,if I start counting this 11,like the cricket eleven in good times,about five or six select themselves. So in this 11,one who selects himself first of all is Citizen Narayana Murthy,three days into retirement [Narayana Murthy protests… So,if you get the call,are you willing to do it?

Well,I am an Indian first. Therefore,of course,I will give up anything else and participate because I have tremendous respect for our Prime Minister. I have tremendous respect for lots of ministers in the government. They are all wonderful people. I have respect for Mrs Sonia Gandhi,for Annaji,I have respect for the NDA coalition. So there is no doubt I will,of course,as an Indian.

So are you surprised that nobody has reached out to you as yet,because you are just the kind of person everybody should have reached out to,because everybody listens to you?

I don’t know if I should be so presumptuous. All that I would say is that I will be ready any day to add value. But,more important,I don’t think — let me take myself out of the equation — the more important thing is that we have to create confidence in Annaji’s team and we have to create confidence in the government’s team,that whatever will be arrived at,will be arrived at by a set of most patriotic Indians. That is the key. But this decision has to be taken by the Prime Minister quickly.

Now,if you get a call,if you are among the 11,you will take the first flight to Delhi?

Oh,absolutely.

And if you go there,what will you tell either side? What will you tell Anna Hazare,and what will you tell the Prime Minister?

The most important thing is,we have to create an environment of dignity,mutual respect and harmony first. We have to use parliamentary words,we cannot use words that communicate that one party is superior to the other. Second,there will have to be this give and take… As long as whatever compromise we make is legal and ethical,as long as it will lead to a better scheme for combating corruption,we should accept give and take.

Negotiation is all about compromise.

Exactly.

Do you think some of that wasn’t done in this case? Because things seem to have hardened.

Again,Shekhar,I don’t want to go into the past.

But you always learn from your mistakes.

Yes,we learn. But as I said earlier,the lesson that I learnt from watching this episode is that somehow we created a situation where trust was lost and we can’t do that…

Was the government more at fault,and the Congress party? Because lately it would look like that — the arrest,the allegations thrown at Anna Hazare and his team.

I have known Dr Manmohan Singh extremely well; I have so much respect for him. Therefore,it is very difficult for me to somehow reconcile with the man that he is,the kind of people that are there in the government,and whatever has happened. I am confused why whatever has happened,happened.

So when you meet the Prime Minister,is that the question you will ask him? That in spite of you and this fine team,how did you do this? That’s exactly the question we should be asking M S Dhoni and his team — in spite of you and such a fine team…

No,as I told you earlier,I don’t want to go into the past. My desire is that if the Prime Minister desires,this is a good way forward. Those 11 people he chooses must then say in the future,how do we come out with a Lokpal Bill that satisfies the aspirations of everybody?

Can you suggest some more names for the 11?

No,I don’t want to,because who am I? It is the prerogative of the Prime Minister.

As a citizen?

No,I don’t want to say that. But we must also realise that Aruna Roy has come out with a very good set of designed principles. I went through them… If we can use those principles and if we combine these with the desire of Annaji and the desire of the government,I am positive we can come out with a wonderful bill.

Tell us a little bit more about the art of negotiation,because you have negotiated with the most difficult clients around the world,people who cut the price to the last cent; you have negotiated with many chief ministers in Karnataka,not all of them loved you.

I think the first rule is,never let the other party lose its face,never. Never let the other party feel that they have been taken for a ride. Third,never let the value system be compromised in any negotiation. As long as these three principles are adhered to,then it is possible to find alternative methods which indeed lead to the same result wherein both parties feel that they have won. The most important thing in any negotiation is,as you and I walk out of it,you should feel that you won and I should feel that I won.

And basic courtesies must never be dispensed with.

That is extremely important. We should not use language that would hurt the ego of people,that would hurt the respect of people. We should be very courteous to each other. You and I can have the fiercest discussion,the fiercest disagreement,but once we walk out,or in doing so,we must be nice. We have a saying at Infosys: “You can disagree with me as long as you are not disagreeable.” Unfortunately,what has happened is some of the people on either side have been disagreeable.

Since we are working in real time,what is the one thing that you will say to the Prime Minister and the one thing you will say to Anna Hazare’s team?

I would say that it is not a good a thing to bypass the standing committee or to bypass Parliament or to force it without too much of debate and discussion.

Or without grace.

Or without grace. Therefore,it is very important to appoint a committee which is seen as impartial,which is seen as highly respected,which is seen as not having vested interests.

Because it is one thing to get the government to lose its face and quite another to have Parliament lose its face.

No we can’t,even the government. After all,these are the people who have made tremendous sacrifices — a lot of politicians I know,they are wonderful people. So we cannot let them lose their face.

All that I would say is the need of the day is to reach out,is to say that look,let us not do anything that we may regret later on,let us not do anything that posterity will hold us responsible for,let us not do anything that our children and grandchildren will say,“These guys went ahead and did something which is not good for our country,which in some way damaged our democracy.”

You’ve dealt with young people,bright young people,a lot of them engineers. You’ve made tens of thousands of them very rich. What gets them impatient? Or have you seen this impatience in them?

Oh yes. I’ll tell you what has happened in the last year or two — unfortunately,this government has been put in a very embarrassing situation because of the Adarsh society scam,then the 2G scam and CWG. Therefore,all the pent-up emotion that people had — because when they went to get services from the government,they had to pay bribes or were denied — all the pent-up emotion is now released because of these three big scams. And now they’re saying that this is the time to fight,so that we won’t be harassed anymore.

I have a suggestion for you. I know you’ve just come back from Mumbai,your bags are in your car. Take the next flight to Delhi,you are needed there.

You are very kind. I am honoured. Thank you.

You are too valuable to be left to Bangalore alone. Just your smile and positivity can light up a gloomy day and I must say that in Delhi we’ve had too many gloomy days already.

— Transcribed by Chaitanya Gudipaty
(This interview took place before Anna Hazare broke his fast at the Ramlila grounds)