Veerappa Moily: Thank you

•Shekhar Gupta: You like my describing you as a trouble shooter from outside the last time?

Veerappa Moily: That is your perception. I can't find fault on your perception

•Shekhar Gupta: (laughs) But you did carry out some important…

Veerappa Moily: Of course, many assignments had been given. Both by Dr. Manmohan Singh and also by our Congress President Soniaji and with utmost sincerity we just started those duties

•Shekhar Gupta: Tell us some of those

Veerappa Moily: Maybe one of them maybe you know 93rd Amendment of the Constitution of India

•Shekhar Gupta: Increasing reservation…

Veerappa Moily: Increasing reservation….there was a big furor…people said this will be the replay of the Mandal Commission and everything, all over. Everybody threatened and almost all the directors of the IIT and IIM. They said these institutions will be destroyed if you introduce that

•Shekhar Gupta: Right

Veerappa Moily: you know, that kind of a surcharge atmosphere that Manmohan Singh had chosen to make me the chairman of…

•Shekhar Gupta: What did he tell you when he gave you this charge

Veerappa Moily: He said yes, don't compromise on merit. These institutions should not only survive but they survive you know with that kind of an excellence which should be parallel to the many many leading institutions of the world. This is the direction which you know he said don't make compromise. I think I have done that job and produced a report and my slogan was expunction, inclusion and excellence

•Shekhar Gupta: But you know that report was seen as something which the real mover of the reservation may not have liked very much. Did you run into some resistance?

Veerappa Moily: You know the always, origin of the river, you know,

•Shekhar Gupta: Right

Veerappa Moily: But origin of the river is definitely different from where the river joins the ocean. This is how the work has to be done and I have done it but that doesn't mean that origin, you know, I should not change the shape of the origin but ultimately what is important the broad based idea to build higher education in this country

•Shekhar Gupta: Because increased reservation also happened

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, it not only happened you must have seen that we provided eighteen-and-a-half thousand crores. That kind of a money was never given to the higher education. You know as a result of that report Prime Minister was motivated to start number of world class universities and manifold increase not only seat was increased to you know all those 45 years the increase in seat in some of these institutions was 1 per cent. But we got at a stretch 52 per cent increase in seats, then hundreds of more universities, Central universities, many IITs and many IIMs. This has really you know made the higher education reach the zenith

•Shekhar Gupta: So would you rather have thought that the Ministry you would have been this time was HRD and not Law

Veerappa Moily: You know ultimately that is the subjective decision of mine. But the objective decision will be taken by Manmohan Singh and also by Soniaji, you know, in the best interest of the party and the best interest of the administration. And I have not given out my choice to anyone, including these two leaders

•Shekhar Gupta: Right. But tell us some of the resistance you had or some of the challenges you faced. Because some of us think you really saved the higher education system while at the same time carrying out a political agenda as well ….of bringing in more reservation

Veerappa Moily: No, no. The reservation concept should not be taken in a narrower way.

•Shekhar Gupta: Or in a negative way

Veerappa Moily: Or in a negative way. It has its own not only political agenda but national agenda

•Shekhar Gupta: Because you yourself come from an OBC so maybe you understand limitations

Veerappa Moily: Social engineering in a democracy cannot be underestimated. Social engineering and democracy will have to be sustained and nurtured. This is how the reservation plays (place??) the policy. You remember in 1960 when John F Kennedy introduced the Equality Act to involve these corporate sectors, private corporate sectors for providing the Black, that kind of an affirmative action. It was initially opposed. But it was ultimately the biggest corporate multinational they said affirmative action makes a good business. That is it, that is the mindset which is opposed to it. But in the ultimate analysis it will serve. For example, in a pond, you don't get much quantity of, that kind of a big quantity of fish

•Shekhar Gupta: Right

Veerappa Moily: And you don't get that kind of a choice of fish as of quality. Then in an ocean you get any choice of fish, large quantity, the best quality. This is how this matter and there should be a large talent pool which the country deserves. How can you do it. Is it confined only to certain segments?

•Shekhar Gupta: but that has to be much larger than even what we have now?

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, correct

•Shekhar Gupta: 52 per cent is great. But what we need is 500 per cent increase

Veerappa Moily: Yeah. More than that. You know you can't say that many of the IIM even 98 per cent there may be a cut off. Man gets 97 per cent that boy has to go to the Harvard, Cambridge and come back to boss over to you

•Shekhar Gupta: Yes

Veerappa Moily: So I think the whole mindset will have to be changed

•Shekhar Gupta: In fact many of them go to Australia (laughs)

Veerappa Moily: (laughs) And get into problem. You know that should be I rather say that this country can become the real reservoir of human capital. I made an experiment, for example in Karnataka there were advertisements in Maharashtra newspapers and other newspapers from the Maharashtra government you know calling for the application from the engineers. Then there is a column p.s post script Karnataka engineers need not apply. The quality of the engineers was very bad

•Shekhar Gupta: Very bad…

Veerappa Moily: First thing I did was to improve the quality of the engineering colleges

•Shekhar Gupta: In Karnataka engineering colleges were in such a bad shape

Veerappa Moily: Yeah. Very bad shape. Then ultimately I evolved such a policy to improve the quality

•Shekhar Gupta: You might do something similar about law colleges now

Veerappa Moily: Yeah. Which I am thinking, as a pioneering effort in Karnataka I was the first person to pioneer the National Law School Univerisity

•Shekhar Gupta: Right, right

Veerappa Moily: ….And even now it is the best

•Shekhar Gupta: It is the best. So are you going to have more of that

Veerappa Moily: I am going to..that is why people who come and say that don't allow the global firms to come here and practice I said you approach in a some other way. What I have done for the engineers in Karnataka which'll ultimately become the Mecca of engineering education in the country and the world

•Shekhar Gupta: Right, right

Veerappa Moily: And that is how I could develop the IT industries, by electronic city, ITPL, everything. So today, you know, even Mr Obama, US president he is afraid of Bangalore because the Silicon Valley is full of our engineers from mostly Karnataka

•Shekhar Gupta: Right, and

Veerappa Moily: So like that why not develop that kind of a legal fraternity here and export to the global

•Shekhar Gupta: I hope you are not…yes, we should have our strength and export to the global market…but I hope you are not succumbing to pressures from Indian lawyers to say don't allow foreign law firms

Veerappa Moily: No, no. I have open mind on that. this is the approach I am going to make, make you to capture the global legal world

•Shekhar Gupta: You know if Indian steel makers, car makers, phone service suppliers, Indian media, Indian apple grower, Indian corn grower faces competition from foreign competitors why shouldn't Indian lawyers?

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, yeah. Why not? Build the capacity within themselves. The capacity building of the human resources particularly legal fraternity is capable of achievement. We can do that

•Shekhar Gupta: So your basic inclination would be to allow more competition and to let foreign firms come in?

Veerappa Moily: No, no I am not making that kind of a commitment

•Shekhar Gupta: I am asking

Veerappa Moily: But I will be in a position to tell our legal fraternity first thing let us build our own capacity and the global first class lawyers within our country

•Shekhar Gupta: So how will they do it unless there is competition

Veerappa Moily: No, no that is the another part of it. But the first part is we can build it. You know for example did we not do it by now there are about 12 national law school universities

•Shekhar Gupta: Right

Veerappa Moily: they provide the best for the corporate world

•Shekhar Gupta: Right

Veerappa Moily: Many of them they earn about 3 lakhs, 4 lakhs per month. If that could be done, why don't we multiply

•Shekhar Gupta: That is a low-paid lawyer actually 3, 4 lakhs per month

Veerappa Moily: It is still more but am telling you only conservative assessment. That means to say when you prepare those people they will be in a position to stand in competition to any legal fraternity anywhere in the world

•Shekhar Gupta: So right now what you are saying on the () of foreign law firms is an open mind

Veerappa Moily: I have an open mind

•Shekhar Gupta: But not inclined one way or the other

Veerappa Moily: No, no. I will take the entire, I am

•Shekhar Gupta: What is the case against allowing them?

Veerappa Moily: No the question is that you know we have, this is the question of an inadequate capacity building within us

•Shekhar Gupta: Right

Veerappa Moily: so we need to build that. that could be done simultaneously. But of course the decision I don't want to get into because after all any reforms, I have very radical reforms in my mind whether it is the judiciary or the legal or anything. But you know I don't want to get into confrontation. I would like to win over, I would like to convince them and I would like to take them into full confidence whether it is the judiciary or the legal fraternity while we implement this

•Shekhar Gupta: Mr Moily, in India, as you know from the experience of your own prime minister a reformer has to take risks in India

Veerappa Moily: Reform means venture. You know you must be mad also in your mind. Sometime you know this is a must. Otherwise you cannot march forward, this is what I have done as a chief minister, this is what as a Administrative reform commission chairman

•Shekhar Gupta: If you are waiting for everyone to agree then a reform may not happen in India

Veerappa Moily: leader is there to lead, not to be led

•Shekhar Gupta: Exactly

Veerappa Moily: This is what I believe. And I have seen that I have succeeded. When I did not have a single MLA to support my common entrance test for admission where there is no corruption, no nepotism, not even a single MLA agreed with me

•Shekhar Gupta: In your state, yes

Veerappa Moily: But today, even till today that was not only replayed in all the states, today that is the system that has survived in Karnataka and elsewhere. So we have to lead the people

•Shekhar Gupta: We are talking so much about what you have done in the previous government when you were not exactly in the government because a lot of the important things you did because you were not in the government but under the radar, I mean, even your work on administrative reforms. What parts of that do you see or do you want implemented now, soon?

Veerappa Moily: I've given 15 reports, you have all seen

•Shekhar Gupta: Yes

Veerappa Moily: And major report is on the civil services reform. That's the major, you know, it is really kind of a creative destruction of the Macaulay's system which was given 150 years back

•Shekhar Gupta: I'll repeat that. Creative destruction of the system Macaulay gave us 150 years back. How does that creative destruction happen

Veerappa Moily: Creative discussion in how IAS, IPS and all these civil services. They are appointed after their graduation or post-graduation. By that time their mindset is already set with regard to the prejudices of the caste, prejudices of the group, prejudices of the religion and all. And you really want a national service like this civil services you need to train those young, capture the young mind, capture the young talent. That is why after twelve, plus twelve you take them, train them and they will be your large talent pool

•Shekhar Gupta: So you will recruit them after plus two

Veerappa Moily: Plus two. That s the new idea given in civil services

•Shekhar Gupta: Like in the Army

Veerappa Moily: Like in the Army. And train them, and still of course that stays. As said we will also allow the other stream to join, the present stream to join, then both of them will have to take things after that

•Shekhar Gupta: As the Armed Forces are…people coming into the NDA and people coming into the IMA

Veerappa Moily: Then again you know

•Shekhar Gupta: But you will have to set up an entirely new academy for that

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, yeah. We'll have to change the whole concept of training and the academy

•Shekhar Gupta: So the IAS,etc admission tests as we know now will not exist

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, correct

•Shekhar Gupta: And that recruitment pattern will not exist

Veerappa Moily: Whole thing will change

•Shekhar Gupta: But does it have sort of political acceptance as an idea

Veerappa Moily: You know that whenever I gave recommendation, I used to have lot of discussion with the officers, various segments of the society and with the chief ministers, lot of exercise

•Shekhar Gupta: So we get many younger people…

Veerappa Moily: And ultimately you find that even though I expected lot of resistance and opposition from many quarters, you found that after my, you know, it all published well. and there was no resistance, no opposition

•Shekhar Gupta: So creative destruction this is at the entrance level. What happens after that?

Veerappa Moily: No even after that, after 14 years, there will be a process of eliminating.

•Shekhar Gupta: I see

Veerappa Moily: There will be a check. The appraisal system we are changing. Then again after joint secretary level there will be provision to even for the outside talent to come in

•Shekhar Gupta: Right. But only after joint secretary level

Veerappa Moily: And after 21 years, you will have to perform or go. There are several levels of checks and balances

•Shekhar Gupta: I see. So that is in many ways very much like Armed Forces had that for a long time

Veerappa Moily: not exactly Armed Forces. This has…

•Shekhar Gupta: Not everybody becomes a general. But in civil service, almost everybody becomes secretary level, deemed secretary

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, yeah. And moreover I have seen in Singapore by the time any officer will become 40 years, he will become the top head

•Shekhar Gupta: Right, right. In India it is 59 years, and then you get three more years

Veerappa Moily: Not necessarily. Test them at every stage, pick up the best talent

•Shekhar Gupta: Does the prime minister accept some of these ideas?

Veerappa Moily: I think he loves, he loves it, of course, now I have become participant in the government I will be in a position to better persuade my colleagues and also the government

•Shekhar Gupta: well you also have to provide the legal framework for all this

Veerappa Moily: That's true, that's true

•Shekhar Gupta: Now..Does law excite you? Your new charge?

Veerappa Moily: No, no. Because this is continuation of my own profession

•Shekhar Gupta: I know, I know

Veerappa Moily: There is nothing new about it. But it excites me of course

•Shekhar Gupta: What do you find most exciting about your new charge

Veerappa Moily: When I take charge I find that there is a big big gap to be fulfilled and we need to reform, but I always found that judicial reform alone will not serve the purpose unless you have administrative back up. Because afterall the biggest litigant is government. 30 per cent of the litigations pertain to criminal cases. Suppose you don't have a police reforms, you don't have a reform on public order,…

•Shekhar Gupta: When government is the litigant also not just in criminal cases, in civil cases as well…

Veerappa Moily: civil cases also

•Shekhar Gupta: And very often government against government

Veerappa Moily: Yes, government against government. That is it

•Shekhar Gupta: Government against PSUs, PSUs against government, PSUs against tax departments

Veerappa Moily: I think we need to do lot of things, lot of fine tuning of the governance, administrative governance and reforms in administration and reforms in judiciary will have to go hand in hand. And it's not as if administration says "you reform" or the judiciary telling that "you reform". I think there should be a lot of mutuality which is being worked out

•Shekhar Gupta: So what kind of reforms are we looking at in law

Veerappa Moily: Under law, one is about the pendency

•Shekhar Gupta: Right

Veerappa Moily: Pendency has to go, 15 years, 20 years, 25 years and even in criminal cases suppose ultimately he is declared innocent, after 8 or 10 years….

•Shekhar Gupta: After he suffered so much

Veerappa Moily: He not only suffers, his family suffers

•Shekhar Gupta:… his family suffers, prestige, image

Veerappa Moily: I think there is no law of torts which is operating. In fact, who is responsible to make him suffer the innocent person, I think the damages will have to be paid. I think the time has come when we should look back and say that criminal justice will have to be disposed of within one, maximum two years. I don't think it should be prolonged. Even, I am telling, even a terminal, a capital error

•Shekhar Gupta: You mean, you think it's possible

Veerappa Moily: It's possible. With the kind of modern…you know, for example, I am telling you a criminal case. Suppose each police station is provided with a scientific equipment with a interrogative room and also provide the mobile forensic lab which is quite possible to do it. It doesn't require a constitution amendment. It's only an administrative arrangement. Then, you know, the court need not go in search of evidence. Now what the courts are doing? Going in search of evidence. Evidence should have been already done. In that case, whatever the genuine case it will result in conviction. Whatever the innocent case, it'd be chucked out

•Shekhar Gupta: today forensic labs take six months to give viscera report

Veerappa Moily: And that too, you don't know where it is coming

•Shekhar Gupta: Right. so are we going to get more forensic science labs

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, yeah. We should. I think police reform is a must

•Shekhar Gupta: Well, now higher judiciary reforms. You have talked about law now for judges to declare their assets

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, yeah. The judiciary cannot be treated on par with the administrative or political executive. They have a right to, you put up some story today, tomorrow, your Indian Express, as politicians we should inform you, we'll issue notice or we'll talk about it. We can defend ourselves, we can go to the court. But judiciary or judges will have, will not, they cannot call press conference and deny it. There are certain limitations which we should understand. They cannot be treated on par with the rest. That's why there should be a stand alone legislation to provide them that kind of a framework or protection where they deserve

•Shekhar Gupta: Are you taking on board so it doesn't become a confrontational situation

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, definitely

•Shekhar Gupta: Have you spoken to

Veerappa Moily: I don't think that judges, I can only say that judges they are not by and large averse to this, declaring their assets. But you will have to build up some protection somewhere so that there will not be vexatious litigations against them

•Shekhar Gupta: But have you discussed it with them yet?

Veerappa Moily: At many points, you know, we do. I would like to take the judiciary to full conference in my roadmap of judicial reforms. Not only on this, on many sectors

•Shekhar Gupta: And you find that the judiciary amenable to that?

Veerappa Moily: No, no. I must tell you again on record that you know when compared to the judicial system all over the world, our India has the best. Credible, most credible. We have the best manpower. Only the question is that we need to have more capacity building. More infrastructure

•Shekhar Gupta: Lawyers might be a problem…

Veerappa Moily: No, no. After all the lawyers

•Shekhar Gupta: …who prolong, adjournments, injunctions

Veerappa Moily: Ultimately, these are the lawyers who are going to become the judges

•Shekhar Gupta: Right. But, they make their living out of injunctions

Veerappa Moily: I don't think. That's a bad reflection of the lawyers, I don't agree. Because I've been…

•Shekhar Gupta: You've been a lawyer (laughs)

Veerappa Moily: But you know, suppose you give a system to them…For example, sometime 2001 the Supreme Court gave a direction, you know, how the hearing should be done, how the judgement should be delivered by the high courts and the Supreme Court within what frame of time. Suppose even if they implement their own judgement in 2001, I think many of the cases will go. Now judgement will take 14 months, sometimes 2 years. I don't think. I think there is a need to train the judges also

•Shekhar Gupta: And what about the increasing notion of judicial corruption?

Veerappa Moily: No, that is most unfortunate and the perception is growing very fast that there is corruption within the judiciary. It is admitted even by the…

•Shekhar Gupta: All the judges

Veerappa Moily: All the judges. So that is because we are not given a system, that's why Judges Inquiry Act, Bill, which is before the Parliament, we have withdrawn that. after having withdrawn we would like to work on these things so that there would be a law even to make the judges accountable, deal with the corruption

•Shekhar Gupta: In 50 years, the only way to deal with them is impeachment…And for 50 years, we haven't had one

Veerappa Moily: 50 years. Nothing, nothing happened. And not even a single case. That's why I think short of impeachment there are many many offences - corruption, accountability, misappropriation, that is what will be included in the judges inquiry

•Shekhar Gupta: What about the pending case from Calcutta? Justice Sen case?

Veerappa Moily: No, no, that is already, we are very serious on that. I would like to ensure that Parliament takes notice of it and that impeachment should go through. That's why one judge, he wanted to withdraw from that. now CJI has nominated Justice Sudarshan Reddy to head that…I think it will go through either this session or next session

•Shekhar Gupta: This is the enquiry on Justice Sen from Calcutta

Veerappa Moily: Yeah, yeah

•Shekhar Gupta: And you think this should go through impeachment?

Veerappa Moily: This will go through. If it doesn't go through people will lose faith in impeachment. Rather we'll repeal that Article from the Constitution. There's no…it's hyprocrisy. And you have the provision and don't use it. I think it will be a reflection ultimately on the members of the Parliament, on the institution of Parliament

•Shekhar Gupta: Because last time something like that was tried, Parliament was very divided and Parliament frankly did not set a great example of itself

Veerappa Moily: I think, we the, when it comes to that, when the Parliament has to discharge its duties, constitutional duties….

•Shekhar Gupta: It will do it this time

Veerappa Moily: if in that case, there will be fear of law, and fear of you know that psyche the judiciary will also understand that you know somebody, the Parliament, the highest body of democracy watching us

•Shekhar Gupta: Now tell me Mr Moily for the common man, I mean this is very important, for the common man the problem is he goes to a court it's a torture. Litigation is the punishment in India. You know just the paper work, incredibly long affidavits, foreign language used in, not foreign language, I don't mean English, I mean more classical foreign languages, the language of the courts, just everything takes forever

Veerappa Moily: I think courts should be citizen-friendly

•Shekhar Gupta: Even your cheque bouncing cases

Veerappa Moily: Cheque bouncing cases. Yeah, yeah. I was told there are more than 20 lakh cases. And you know, I think we are working on that so that cheque bouncing cases can be disposed of within one year. We are working on that procedure. Ultimately..

•Shekhar Gupta: Within one year? Still a long time?

Veerappa Moily: No, no. Within one year I said. Now it's pending, even to register a case, it takes six months

•Shekhar Gupta: So your fast track adalats will do some of that, I suppose. But how do you handle these 3 crore pendencies

Veerappa Moily: No, there are several methods to do that. already told you that we are asking major litigant departments, major litigant ministries, will identify them. Then review everything and where the cases could be jettisoned, withdrawn, appeals or revisions…

•Shekhar Gupta: You will not look at something really radical like government not going into appeal once it loses a case

Veerappa Moily: We should. We should. Why? Make the officers, officers are not prepared to you know take the responsibility. They will have to take the responsibility. They cant just pass on the buck to the court. If the grievances system are the inbuilt mechanism to take care of the problems of the people, problem of a litigant, will have to be looked into first by the government or the ministry

•Shekhar Gupta: So can we go into an America….

Veerappa Moily: And only those cases where it is inevitable to go to the court, only those cases should go

•Shekhar Gupta: So you would work with other ministries to bring down appeals by the government

Veerappa Moily: Yes. Bring down appeals and not to ultimately go to the court when even there is not much financial implications involved, they just rush to the court

•Shekhar Gupta: People just go to the court because nobody wants to…

Veerappa Moily: Take responsibility

•Shekhar Gupta: To take a decision

Veerappa Moily: I think authority given to an officer at various level, if they discharge it properly, many of the litigations will disappear

•Shekhar Gupta: Mr Moily what happens to your literary career now

Veerappa Moily: Literary, am on. Now you know, I am writing The Unleashing India. And the first volume has come. That is on Roadmap to Agrarian Wealth Creation

•Shekhar Gupta: But you are also doing your Ramayana book in English?

Veerappa Moily: Ramayana book is already translated. There is a committee headed by a Vice-Chancellor. They have already completed the task, maybe October November that will be on the stall. Then right now I am writing another epic poem. A poet writes only one epic poem in his life, all over the world and in India and I am writing another. That is on Draupadi, what is called Sirimudi Parikranam. Sirimudi means tuft, that is the cause for the Kurukshetra war, that is the cause for end of Dwapara yug. So I am writing on that, maybe it will take one one-and-a-half year. Now from the birth to the swayamvaram, I've completed that. Everyday morning, I write

•Shekhar Gupta: You must sleep very little we know. Because you have very important charge. But you know it's wonderful to have one more conversation with you Mr Moily. Poet, lawyer, trouble shooter and now a minister. So all the best for your new charge

Veerappa Moily: Thank you, thank you

•Shekhar Gupta: Thank you very much

Transcribed by Sharika C