I am very happy that you are here and also the fact that we are doing this interview at the war memorial. Punjab is very proud of this war memorial; we have sacrificed many lives for the country during the freedom struggle and in the wars that followed.

•Yes, we thought of this since Punjab and north Indian states have made enormous contribution and many sacrifices during wars. We don’t really build war memorials in India; our leaders and some friends got together to build this memorial. And we thought this would be a good venue for the interview. It is also close to your house.

This is a very big initiative by you.

•That is very kind of you. You are a true patriot — someone who’s spent 17 years in prison.

But I have one regret. The Government of India has a rule that only a fixed percentage of the population can join the Army from a state. This is the only Central service in which reservation is based on population. Instead, it should be according to merit. This is one of the grievances we have. There should be no quota at all. After all, there is no state quota in other Central services such as IPS and IAS.

•So why this rule only for the Army?

I don’t want to name anyone, but some people did it due to their own personal interests. The politics of this country today is about personal interests and one’s own gains. National interest is entirely overlooked. Earlier, Punjab had 25 to 50 per cent of its population in the Army. Generals used to be from Punjab. Now, there are very few, because of this rule.

•So, you want it to change?

Yes, definitely. This has been a major demand of Punjab for a long time.

•At the Centre, there is always a fear associated with Punjab — that of Sikh politics. A tag of separatism has been attached to it.

Sikhs can’t be separatists. In our very roots, even in our prayers, we think of the whole world as a place for the entire humanity, not just this country. These are all baseless fears that the Centre comes up with to taint us.

•So, there was never a separatist mood here?

No, there wasn’t. Even when the country was partitioned, there was an offer from Jinnah, but as true patriots the Sikhs chose to stay in India.

•Nelson Mandela was in jail but in an occupied country, you were imprisoned in your own independent country.

This was a policy of the Central Government, of the Congress.

•But you stayed in jail for so long... are you not bitter about it?

No, I am not bitter. I have done my duty and this is not just for the Sikhs or for the state. If anyone stood up for the country during the Emergency, it was the Shiromani Akali Dal. We started surrendering from day one of the Emergency till the very last day. Others were arrested, but we were the only ones to offer ourselves. When the Emergency began, Indira Gandhi sent a message saying that you may rule in Punjab forever, but don’t stand against the Emergency. This was against our basic principles, as we have always fought against injustice. So, we stood up against the Emergency and also supported Jai Prakash Narayan.

•And your history with the BJP also seems to have begun at the time of the Emergency.

That was an important point and post-Emergency when the government was formed, I became a Cabinet minister. I am grateful to Morarji Desai for giving me that responsibility.

•Tell me about your experience with the BJP leaders when you were in jail. It seems to have bridged the gap between Hindu and Sikh politics.

Yes, the divide narrowed down. The relationship with the BJP was not for a specific purpose. It was natural and Sikhs in other parts of the country also began to feel safe. They were confident that a major political party in the country was with them. This was a positive development, because earlier, they used to feel isolated.

•Why do the Sikhs distrust the Congress?

Because immediately after the country became independent, the Congress gave us step-motherly treatment or rather, deceived us. Nehru made several promises to the Sikhs. As a reminder to these promises, Master Tara Singh held a conference in Delhi and was arrested there. When Punjab became a linguistic state, they deceived us yet again. It was they who wanted to make linguistic states. The strongest case was that of Punjab. They didn’t agree to it and there was agitation and finally, we became a linguistic state. But we were betrayed. Chandigarh was not given to us; it was with its parent state and then made into a Union Territory.

•But there was also distrust at the Centre. They feared that if a lot of territory were given to Punjab, there would be separatism again. The shadow of Khalistan was there.

No one tried to understand the Shiromani Akali Dal. We are nationalistic and all inclusive in our approach. The Congress, in fact, supported the militants against us.

•Any particular incident?

Take the case of the Mann Dal (Simranjit Singh Mann’s party). They hardly exist, but they still vote for the Congress.

•But I believe in the bypoll they got only 1,000 votes...

... 1,300 votes to be precise and that’s just a fluke. Anyone can manage that.

•There was an era when there was a lot of talk about Simranjit Singh Mann and the separatists. Is that over?

Yes. The people of Punjab were unhappy with the discrimination of the Central Government and the Shiromani Akali Dal was not able to do much. These people promised them what we could not achieve. We stood no chance in the elections. A lot of people supported them and then there was a stage when everyone feared them. The government machinery, secretariat and the judges were also scared. But after a time, this fear turned into hatred.

•We all remember those two-three years when everyone was scared. There were very few people, comrades from CPI and you, despite being a part of the SAD, who stood their ground. But we often wondered why you didn’t speak out more against them. At that time did you ever feel that Punjab would never come out of that?

No, I was sure that even if people initially supported it, such fanaticism would not last for long.

•What was happening in Punjab at that time in the name of the Sikhs was fanaticism and communalism?

Yes. When the elections took place, terrorists killed 24 of our MLAs. On the last day, the Congress postponed the polls and so, we could not win. That was a big loss to the Shiromani Akali Dal and the country. Tohra was attacked, Talwandi was attacked, the terrorists killed workers, but we did our duty.

•Even today you are under threat.

Yes, but I am not concerned about that. One will die when the time comes.

• In that phase of terror, when the bureaucracy and judicial system crumbled, were you ever scared?

No, I was never scared. When we fought elections, people used to tell me there’s no point, but I did not give up even when others were being killed.

• A number of your comrades were killed.

So many of them, but I fought elections till the end.

•Whenever there is terrorism, the biggest enemy of the terrorists is the political class; they target the middle-level leaders.

Yes, this was a big loss for us. The Congress boycotted the elections. Only we fought the elections and they still call us separatists!

•Did you feel bad when your loyalties were suspected?

It’s natural. I used to feel very sad, but I kept following my path and I think every man should follow his path despite obstacles. If one just keeps going, things turn out to be fine, finally.

• Even if you have to be in jail for 17 years?

That is okay.

•And you are constantly under threat?

That is also okay. Some people ask me what is the secret of my becoming the CM for the fourth time. I tell them that it’s not as though there’s no one more capable, but it’s all about following one’s own path.

•And you have learnt politics from the grassroots level. You were a sarpanch and then the youngest MLA at 21 and the youngest CM.

Yes, I have seen everything in Indian and Punjab politics from the very beginning. I graduated from Lahore in 1947 and became a sarpanch and then everything else followed.

•In those two-three years, terror had popular support. Why did it have that support?

It was the Congress’s fault. Because the people of Punjab couldn’t get justice from the Congress, they thought AK-47s could help them get that. They were influenced, but gradually that influence waned off.

•And then you say that people developed a hatred for terrorism. How did that happen?

People started reporting about militants. They realised that it would not benefit them and now there is hardly anyone who supports militancy. Mann might call himself a champion and a good friend of the Congress, but he only got 1,300 votes. And the Congress policy of always pitting an Akali Dal rebel against the main Akali Dal to weaken it has been their biggest mistake.

•Was the Congress also responsible for the Bhindranwale phenomenon?

If the Congress had handled things properly, everything would have been fine. They have only one theory in Punjab politics — to create friction between the Hindus and the Sikhs. This has been their strategy since the very beginning and this is how they have hurt Punjab. We had always wanted Hindus and Sikhs to live peacefully, not for political gains but because everyone likes a harmonious atmosphere.

•That you have already established with an alliance with the BJP — a Hindu party and a Sikh party coming together.

Yes, and now a number of Hindus and Christians are supporting us. In fact, Sikhs are also voting for the BJP and you will be surprised to know that the maximum number of seats we won were in big towns like Ludhiana, Jalandhar and Amritsar.

•There was a time, during the terrorism phase, when there was tension between you and the BJP...

... But there was no hatred. Everyone was mature and it all worked out eventually.

•There was no hatred, but there was disappointment. The BJP leaders used to wonder why you didn’t speak out more against terrorism.

But the base of the relationship was strong and so, everything worked out finally.

•Do you ever think that during 1982-85 period, and in the period dominated by terror after that, a leader like you should have spoken out more than you did against terrorism?

I performed my duty as per the political atmosphere of that time and Shiromani Akali Dal had a lot to do with the turnaround that happened eventually.

•And the way the people of Punjab got disillusioned with terrorism and did away with it...

... We lost a lot. We were lagging behind economically and there was a lot of bloodshed. Moreover, there were no results, nor any gains.

•No one wants to remember it in Punjab. It was just a bad dream.

No, not anymore.

To be concluded