‘I don’t think Adarsh was built on defence land,that land belongs to the government of Maharashtra’

Shekhar Gupta: Do you think the 78,000 MW target will be met?

Sushilkumar Shinde: Absolutely. Now the train is on track. So far the train was not on track,there was no fuel. Now every linkage has been given and there is monitoring. If you consider the last year,we have added 9,585 MW in a year. This has never happened in the country before.

Subhomoy Bhattacharya: Of the four ultra mega power plant projects you have signed,NTPC has not been able to qualify for even one. Is it because NTPC could not put its case forward properly?

Sushilkumar Shinde: No. It’s a big company but they did not want to take a risk in the beginning whereas private companies took a risk of Rs 1.90 paise per unit. It (NTPC) was a little hesitant in doing so. It depends on the company,what they can afford. Our main focus is to give cheaper power,clean power.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: The go,no-go issue is delaying a lot of power projects. Given the stated positions of the environment and coal ministries,is there hope for these projects?

Sushilkumar Shinde: There is no legal sanctity to this ‘go,no-go’ issue. We want the opinion of the law department to be obtained. In the 12th Plan,we have a target of 1,07,000 MW. Both the ministries are working towards finding solutions. In recent times,we have found that the environment ministry has curtailed some of the areas and suggested some others.

Sunil Jain: On the Reliance vs NTPC controversy,one of the points people made was that NTPC was wrong because they did not do the contracting properly. What is going to happen right now?

Sushilkumar Shinde: The matter is in the High Court. There was an agreement between the two companies and now there is a dispute. First,there was a consideration,then there was an agreement,then the final proposal was accepted. So under the rules of agreement,these three criteria have to be completed.

Sunil Jain: Will you go for an out-of-court settlement?

Sushilkumar Shinde: No,not on this.

Amitav Ranjan: The Solicitor-General has already given his advice. The matter was to be discussed in an EGoM but it has not met. This suggests you are going for an out-of-court settlement.

Sushilkumar Shinde: I am also a member of that EGoM. It has been decided that the matter will be decided by the court and the EGoM will not intervene.

Ravish Tiwari: There are a large number of hydro-projects in the north-eastern states. The people opposing it are using environment as a handle. As a power minister,what is your take on this?

Sushilkumar Shinde: Arunachal Pradesh is the hub—around 50,000 MW is expected to come from that area. Our neighbouring countries are constructing dams so we wanted to do something. I have been talking to the environment ministry—on some projects,they want a clearance. I do not know why there is an objection because except for one project,the others are run-of-the-river projects and there is no difficulty as such.

Sunil Jain: Have you taken this up with Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh?

Sushilkumar Shinde: Yes,I have. I said I will be open but we have to strike a balance. Let them study the matter. India is a developing country,we can’t compare our environment statistics with that of the developed countries.

Sunil Jain: You have been talking about getting power projects off the ground. But look at the projections of the 13th Finance Commission. Power sector losses are to grow by five or six times. Most of these power projects are not even bankable.

Sushilkumar Shinde: You are talking about the ATC losses. Yes,we have already taken cognisance of it and that is why Rs 50,000 crore has been sanctioned for distribution and every utility is now on our computerised system. Once that is done,we will know where exactly the difficulty lies. The second stage is renovation and modernisation. If you see,from 38 per cent ATC losses we have come down to 28 per cent. I will be able to bring this down to 15 per cent but it takes time. Take the case of agriculture: it consumes a lot of energy. So we have given a new scheme through the Bureau of Energy Efficiency—we are giving an electrical pump free of cost to agriculturists and also three years of free maintenance so that they don’t use the old electrical pumps. The new pumps will reduce energy consumption.

Sunil Jain: Recently,there was a fight between the Delhi government and the Delhi Electricity Regulatory Commission (DERC) in the Supreme Court. State governments are routinely violating the Electricity Act and issuing directives. Are you going to make sure that state governments don’t do that?

Sushilkumar Shinde: The Electricity Act has created this regulatory function. Now Delhi is in a far better shape. During the Commonwealth Games,we produced 5,000 MW but only 3,500 MW was used. So there are no power cuts in Delhi. The time has come when Delhi will sell power. On the issue of directives,as you know,power is on the concurrent list. I do not want to encroach upon state government powers.

Swaraj Thapa: Coming to the Adarsh building scam,when you were CM of Maharashtra,your principle secretary and his mother and father had a flat in the apartments.

Sushilkumar Shinde: I don’t know. At that time,I did not know if anybody’s relatives were there. But that land belongs to the government of Maharashtra. There have been so many things on record. The government of Maharashtra had correspondence with defence people. Inquiries were made by the secretary,deputy secretary,revenue secretary,tahsildar. After that,the files come to the CM and he signs. All officers verify everything before it comes to the CM. Fortunately,none of my family members are in that scam.

Shishir Gupta: You said it is government land; the army says it is their land. My understanding is that it is a 40 m wide road which has been cut down and on which the society was built?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I don’t think it is defence land because I had gone through the papers.

Coomi Kapoor: Is it possible for a non-Maratha to be CM in Maharashtra for a long time? You had a very short term.

Sushilkumar Shinde: Caste and creed always play a part and a very ruthless decision was taken to send me there as CM. Since 1960,nobody from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes had been given a chance.

Shekhar Gupta: Was it tough to be a non-Maratha?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I think it depends on you how you handle it. I believe a Scheduled Caste man must lead everyone,not just stand up for the Scheduled Caste community alone. People should have the confidence that here is man who will provide us leadership.

Shekhar Gupta: How is it that in almost two decades,no Congress chief minister has completed five years in Maharashtra?

Sushilkumar Shinde: The situation in the country is such that in a coalition government,one has to be very careful. From 1977 onwards,there was a very strong Maharashtra government but the situation changed and the Democratic Front government was formed under the leadership of Sharad Pawar. Earlier,we use to say that a particular leader is becoming too powerful and that’s why he is being changed but now that situation is not there.

Rakesh Sinha: What do you make of the new row over the Lavasa project?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I don’t know what is going on today. It was a small place where tourism was allowed.

Shekhar Gupta: Do you have a flat there?

Sushilkumar Shinde: No,I do not have a flat there. Neither in Adarsh nor in Lavasa.

Coomi Kapoor: Why is it that the Congress has such a bad record of governance in Maharashtra? Poor indices of growth,industrial growth,GDP growth?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I don’t think there is bad record of governance in Maharashtra. I don’t know the present position but it is improving. There has been a lot of investment too.

Rakesh Sinha: Have you taken up the issue of the Arunachal Pradesh power projects with the PM?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I have explained the situation and the PM is aware of the developments.

Sunil Jain: Do you think reservation for scheduled castes and tribes has really served its purpose? They seem to be better off in states which are rich,which are industrialising,where GDP is growing.

Sushilkumar Shinde: It has (served the purpose). Reservation has always helped scheduled castes and tribes. If you consider elections,a lot of money has to be spent. With reservation,one can go with a little money and a proper representation is given.

Coomi Kapoor: Your party had lost a large section of the Dalit vote which was once your vote bank—in Bihar,for instance. Do you feel there is some lacunae in the party’s policy towards Dalits?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I think the local leadership has to introspect why they have failed. We have not done well in Bihar for a very long time.

Sunil Jain: Are people voting for caste or growth?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I am of the opinion that we should become a caste-less society. I take oath as a solemn affirmation and not in the name of God. The Congress and other parties used to believe in socialism. But over the years,there has been a change and in the north,caste-based leadership came forward and everything collapsed.

D K Singh: You were the Congress’s general secretary and now you are a minister. Which one is more powerful and which would you prefer?

Sushilkumar Shinde: Both are powerful,it depends on how you utilise them.

D K Singh: On the dynastic phenomenon in the Congress,your daughter has also come into politics. How do you view this phenomenon? You can’t blame dynasties. Those who have capability can join. I will give you an example of my own daughter. She was doing NGO work. She was helping helpless women and children. She got 33,000 votes. People decided she could lead them. Can you call this dynasty politics?

Sushilkumar Shinde: When I took over in 2006,the target of the tenth Plan was 41,000 MW. When I completed two years,I was given almost double that target—78,000 MW. In a mid-term appraisal,it was brought down to 62,000 MW for various reasons—the orders for equipment,etc.,were not placed in time during the tenth Plan,there was no monitoring,there was only one equipment factory in existence,BHEL,which had a capacity of only 5,000 MW. We took a decision to go for 78,000 MW and that we will not repeat the mistakes committed in the ninth and tenth Plans. We saw that orders were placed in time,that a monitoring system was put in the Central Electricity Regulatory Commission and an expert monitoring committee was created at all levels,right up to my level. Not only that,I have taken in advisors from FICCI and CII. That’s why,today,in four and a half years,I have generated a capacity of 44,000 MW. Of the eleventh Plan target,as of today,I have generated 29,000 MW. The Rajiv Gandhi Grameen Vidyutikaran Yojana has covered up to 87,000 villages. Today we have six equipment factories—BHEL and Seimens,L&T with Mitsubishi,Bharat Forge with Alstom,Toshiba with JSW. New factories are coming but it will take some time. I am confident that India will soon export equipment.

Swaraj Thapa: You said the Plan target was 78,000 MW and you have achieved only 29,000 MW,which is less than 50 per cent. So where does the blame lie,does it lie with the Planning Commission for setting a very high target or with your ministry?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I gave you a background to the problem. Yes,it is the Planning Commission’s job to give a developmental push but there are geological difficulties in hydro-electricity,the lack of machinery,etc. I am of the view that the Planning Commission must set higher targets so people can work towards ambitious plans.

Shekhar Gupta: Do you think the 78,000 MW target will be met?

Sushilkumar Shinde: Absolutely. Now the train is on track. So far the train was not on track,there was no fuel. Now every linkage has been given and there is monitoring. If you consider the last year,we have added 9,585 MW in a year. This has never happened in the country before.

Subhomoy Bhattacharya: Of the four ultra mega power plant projects you have signed,NTPC has not been able to qualify for even one. Is it because NTPC could not put its case forward properly?

Sushilkumar Shinde: No. It’s a big company but they did not want to take a risk in the beginning whereas private companies took a risk of Rs 1.90 paise per unit. It (NTPC) was a little hesitant in doing so. It depends on the company,what they can afford. Our main focus is to give cheaper power,clean power.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: The go,no-go issue is delaying a lot of power projects. Given the stated positions of the environment and coal ministries,is there hope for these projects?

Sushilkumar Shinde: There is no legal sanctity to this ‘go,no-go’ issue. We want the opinion of the law department to be obtained. In the 12th Plan,we have a target of 1,07,000 MW. Both the ministries are working towards finding solutions. In recent times,we have found that the environment ministry has curtailed some of the areas and suggested some others.

Sunil Jain: On the Reliance vs NTPC controversy,one of the points people made was that NTPC was wrong because they did not do the contracting properly. What is going to happen right now?

Sushilkumar Shinde: The matter is in the High Court. There was an agreement between the two companies and now there is a dispute. First,there was a consideration,then there was an agreement,then the final proposal was accepted. So under the rules of agreement,these three criteria have to be completed.

Sunil Jain: Will you go for an out-of-court settlement?

Sushilkumar Shinde: No,not on this.

Amitav Ranjan: The Solicitor-General has already given his advice. The matter was to be discussed in an EGoM but it has not met. This suggests you are going for an out-of-court settlement.

Sushilkumar Shinde: I am also a member of that EGoM. It has been decided that the matter will be decided by the court and the EGoM will not intervene.

Ravish Tiwari: There are a large number of hydro-projects in the north-eastern states. The people opposing it are using environment as a handle. As a power minister,what is your take on this?

Sushilkumar Shinde: Arunachal Pradesh is the hub—around 50,000 MW is expected to come from that area. Our neighbouring countries are constructing dams so we wanted to do something. I have been talking to the environment ministry—on some projects,they want a clearance. I do not know why there is an objection because except for one project,the others are run-of-the-river projects and there is no difficulty as such.

Sunil Jain: Have you taken this up with Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh?

Sushilkumar Shinde: Yes,I have. I said I will be open but we have to strike a balance. Let them study the matter. India is a developing country,we can’t compare our environment statistics with that of the developed countries.

Sunil Jain: You have been talking about getting power projects off the ground. But look at the projections of the 13th Finance Commission. Power sector losses are to grow by five or six times. Most of these power projects are not even bankable.

Sushilkumar Shinde: You are talking about the ATC losses. Yes,we have already taken cognisance of it and that is why Rs 50,000 crore has been sanctioned for distribution and every utility is now on our computerised system. Once that is done,we will know where exactly the difficulty lies. The second stage is renovation and modernisation. If you see,from 38 per cent ATC losses we have come down to 28 per cent. I will be able to bring this down to 15 per cent but it takes time. Take the case of agriculture: it consumes a lot of energy. So we have given a new scheme through the Bureau of Energy Efficiency—we are giving an electrical pump free of cost to agriculturists and also three years of free maintenance so that they don’t use the old electrical pumps. The new pumps will reduce energy consumption.

Sunil Jain: Recently,there was a fight between the Delhi government and the Delhi Electricity Regulatory Commission (DERC) in the Supreme Court. State governments are routinely violating the Electricity Act and issuing directives. Are you going to make sure that state governments don’t do that?

Sushilkumar Shinde: The Electricity Act has created this regulatory function. Now Delhi is in a far better shape. During the Commonwealth Games,we produced 5,000 MW but only 3,500 MW was used. So there are no power cuts in Delhi. The time has come when Delhi will sell power. On the issue of directives,as you know,power is on the concurrent list. I do not want to encroach upon state government powers.

Swaraj Thapa: Coming to the Adarsh building scam,when you were CM of Maharashtra,your principle secretary and his mother and father had a flat in the apartments.

Sushilkumar Shinde: I don’t know. At that time,I did not know if anybody’s relatives were there. But that land belongs to the government of Maharashtra. There have been so many things on record. The government of Maharashtra had correspondence with defence people. Inquiries were made by the secretary,deputy secretary,revenue secretary,tahsildar. After that,the files come to the CM and he signs. All officers verify everything before it comes to the CM. Fortunately,none of my family members are in that scam.

Shishir Gupta: You said it is government land; the army says it is their land. My understanding is that it is a 40 m wide road which has been cut down and on which the society was built?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I don’t think it is defence land because I had gone through the papers.

Coomi Kapoor: Is it possible for a non-Maratha to be CM in Maharashtra for a long time? You had a very short term.

Sushilkumar Shinde: Caste and creed always play a part and a very ruthless decision was taken to send me there as CM. Since 1960,nobody from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes had been given a chance.

Shekhar Gupta: Was it tough to be a non-Maratha?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I think it depends on you how you handle it. I believe a Scheduled Caste man must lead everyone,not just stand up for the Scheduled Caste community alone. People should have the confidence that here is man who will provide us leadership.

Shekhar Gupta: How is it that in almost two decades,no Congress chief minister has completed five years in Maharashtra?

Sushilkumar Shinde: The situation in the country is such that in a coalition government,one has to be very careful. From 1977 onwards,there was a very strong Maharashtra government but the situation changed and the Democratic Front government was formed under the leadership of Sharad Pawar. Earlier,we use to say that a particular leader is becoming too powerful and that’s why he is being changed but now that situation is not there.

Rakesh Sinha: What do you make of the new row over the Lavasa project?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I don’t know what is going on today. It was a small place where tourism was allowed.

Shekhar Gupta: Do you have a flat there?

Sushilkumar Shinde: No,I do not have a flat there. Neither in Adarsh nor in Lavasa.

Coomi Kapoor: Why is it that the Congress has such a bad record of governance in Maharashtra? Poor indices of growth,industrial growth,GDP growth?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I don’t think there is bad record of governance in Maharashtra. I don’t know the present position but it is improving. There has been a lot of investment too.

Rakesh Sinha: Have you taken up the issue of the Arunachal Pradesh power projects with the PM?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I have explained the situation and the PM is aware of the developments.

Sunil Jain: Do you think reservation for scheduled castes and tribes has really served its purpose? They seem to be better off in states which are rich,which are industrialising,where GDP is growing.

Sushilkumar Shinde: It has (served the purpose). Reservation has always helped scheduled castes and tribes. If you consider elections,a lot of money has to be spent. With reservation,one can go with a little money and a proper representation is given.

Coomi Kapoor: Your party had lost a large section of the Dalit vote which was once your vote bank—in Bihar,for instance. Do you feel there is some lacunae in the party’s policy towards Dalits?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I think the local leadership has to introspect why they have failed. We have not done well in Bihar for a very long time.

Sunil Jain: Are people voting for caste or growth?

Sushilkumar Shinde: I am of the opinion that we should become a caste-less society. I take oath as a solemn affirmation and not in the name of God. The Congress and other parties used to believe in socialism. But over the years,there has been a change and in the north,caste-based leadership came forward and everything collapsed.

D K Singh: You were the Congress’s general secretary and now you are a minister. Which one is more powerful and which would you prefer?

Sushilkumar Shinde: Both are powerful,it depends on how you utilise them.

D K Singh: On the dynastic phenomenon in the Congress,your daughter has also come into politics. How do you view this phenomenon?

Sushilkumar Shinde: You can’t blame dynasties. Those who have capability can join. I will give you an example of my own daughter. She was doing NGO work. She was helping helpless women and children. She got 33,000 votes. People decided she could lead them. Can you call this dynasty politics?

Transcribed by Shruti Srivastava