‘I have never castigated politicians or called them useless’

Anna Hazare: The country works on the law. MLAs and MPs have two basic responsibilities—to manage the accounts and to formulate laws. We have no option but to approach them as they are law-makers. We go to them seeking a law which the people want. If they do not enact the law,then there is no alternative but an agitation.

Girish Kuber: Do you believe they will enact laws which will work against them?

Anna Hazare: It is our responsibility to inform them of what we want. Maybe all (MLAs and MPs) are not aware of the provisions. We drew up a draft of the Lokpal Bill and sent it to all MPs. We asked them to implement it. We did not insist that our draft be adopted,instead we asked them to take whatever could be used to make a law to curb corruption. From May 1,we will tell the public what they told us at those meetings.

Sandeep Acharya: Fifty per cent of the electorate does not vote. Do you think the people will teach politicians a lesson?

Anna Hazare: At least 90 per cent should vote. In the last (assembly) elections,the percentage of voting went up,marginally. Even if you don’t want to select a candidate,you can register your vote to ensure that there is no bogus voting. It is also our fault that corrupt people are entering Parliament,that we are not stopping them with our votes.

Vinayak Parab: Do you think if you are elected to Parliament,you will have the constitutional support for the laws you want

enacted,which will make the process easier for you?

Anna Hazare: I feel I should contest,but if I contest today,I will lose my deposit. That is why I say that if the youth want to get rid of the current rotten politics,they should enter politics. But it cannot be done suddenly. They have to burn like a candle for the people,for several years and gain their confidence. I have said I will campaign for them. But I will not contest,I won’t take out a party,I will not take up any post.

Girish Kuber: Is Rajya Sabha an option for you?

Anna Hazare: In Rajya Sabha,there is the rule of the majority. In the case of the Lokpal Bill,people who oppose it are in a majority. So it doesn’t work. The PM is there—is he bad? There are no allegations against him. But if there is pressure of the remote control,what can PM do? Nothing. So,even if I go there,I will not be able to do anything.

Anuradha Agrawal: What does Baba Ramdev bring to the table?

Anna Hazare: Black money is a sort of corruption. We have decided we will not move together as both of us have our own expanse of supporters,our own work. However,we will support each other’s causes. On June 3,Baba Ramdev,and Sri Sri Ravishankar will be with us.

Girish Kuber: Is RSS also supporting you?

Anna Hazare: There is a problem there. These people are not bad but there is the issue of communalism and we don’t want communalism into the movement.

Umakant Deshpande: When you have such a huge support base,why do you fear you will lose your deposit in elections?

Anna Hazare: The voter is not alert. Today,in villages,the illiterate man is misled if he is shown a Rs 500 note. The drunkard is promised liquor. I see how much money is being spent on elections. A person who stays in a temple,how will he contest elections?

Sandeep Acharya: There is a contest for the presidential elections and Sharad Pawar has said a non-political person should be elected. A person such as you?

Anna Hazare: I’m not eligible. I do not want that even if everyone consents. I respect the post but there is a tinge of politics in it and I do not want to be embroiled in that. It (the President’s post) is not my expectation or my aspiration.

Sandeep Pradhan: Many people have taken exception to the behaviour and to comments made by Arvind Kejriwal and Kiran Bedi. What do you think?

Anna Hazare: People talk in the air. They don’t say what is wrong with Team Anna. The allegation against Kiran Bedi of corruption in airfare money,even if true,the money was not used for her family.

Girish Kuber: Has the pride of doing social work by some

members of Team Anna,affected/hampered the agitation?

Anna Hazare: It could be so. This problem has affected many people for centuries—people with such attitude cannot serve the people. Even I have faced criticism.

Girish Kuber: Kiran Bedi not using the money for personal use—the same argument can be given by politicians when accused of corruption.

Anna Hazare: There is a difference in thought. Kiran Bedi has dedicated her life to work for many causes without expectation of gain. There is no personal greed in her. If she has used it for the people,it cannot be called wrong.

Sandeep Acharya: Will you accept the same argument from Kanimozhi (in 2G scam)?

Anna Hazare: Politicans and social workers are different. Politicians are filled with greed. There is hardly one politician without such a trait. Contesting elections needs money. How do people get money for it? We do not believe politicians when they say they have taken money for social work. Take Arvind Kejriwal. He did not use public funds for personal gain. He is an IIT student,he could have earned in lakhs. His mother and wife are teachers. His tyag is important. There is no link to corruption in his case.

Prabhakar Raokar: Are you aware that members of your team have filed complaints at Mumbai’s Azad Maidan police station regarding fraud in donation box fund collection during the agitation?

Anna Hazare: In the core committee meet last week,I raised the subject. I sought an audit of the funds raised at Azad Maidan. I said our work should be transparent.

Mahendra Kulkarni: Sharad Pawar maintained ties with enemies in politics but has strained relations with you. Why?

Anna Hazare: There is no reason. Since the beginning,we have been working for the people. Whatever we saw and found improper,we have campaigned against. For instance,in the Lavasa project,we objected and even went to court.

Mukund Sangoram: Over the years,you have seen many chief ministers—from Sharad Pawar to Manohar Joshi and Sushilkumar Shinde. Is there any change in those holding power?

Anna Hazare: I don’t see much of a difference. But they became more conscious of their misdeeds. In 1992,we agitated against the Sharad Pawar government and they subsequently lost power. So at least they learnt a lesson. Then the other one [Shiv Sena came to power. If the earlier government had got itself a “graduation” (in corruption),the next one completed a “doctorate.” We had to agitate again after which they put me in jail.

Kalpana Hinduja: Recently,the lone Muslim face of your organisation,Mufti Shamoom Qasmi,left your group. What do you have to say?

Anna Hazare: He lost direction despite working with us for so long. He secretly leaked details of our core committee meetings to the press from his mobile phone. Some things should not become known to the outside world— they harm the agitation. After we found out what he was doing,we questioned him,he got angry and left. His anger is not justified.

Girish Kuber: But you have always insisted there should be complete transparency,so what is the harm if he gave away details to the media?

Anna Hazare: It’s like a dispute between family members. Would you say that there should be complete transparency in such matters as well? Somethings have to be kept secret.

Girish Kuber: The government can use the same logic on several issues,including discussions on Lokpal Bill?

Anna Hazare: In a meeting,if I speak in a somewhat strict tone about audits or transparency,the message that will go out is that I lashed out at members and there is a rift in the team. To avoid such situations,somethings must be kept from the outside world. Once a particular decision is taken,we are open about it.

Santosh Pradhan: Would you say the same thing about cabinet meetings?

Anna Hazare: In discussions,there are disagreements and disputes. Until things are clear,they should not be public. That is our demand of the government. Why do they keep the people in the dark even after the decisions are reached? But till a decision is reached,some amount of secrecy is needed.

Sandeep Acharya: You have recently praised Raj Thackeray,what is your opinion of him?

Anna Hazare: I have expressed my appreciation of his decision to hold examinations for candidates before giving them party tickets. That is construed by some to mean that I have given him a certificate of approval.

Rohan Tillu: In your earlier agitations for RTI and for giving more power to gram sabhas,you started from the grassroots and then took your agitation to the Centre. In the Jan Lokpal agitation,the opposite seems to have happened.

Anna Hazare: Not correct. We first created a draft bill and took the opinion of ordinary people. I didn’t go to Delhi all of a sudden. It is an unfortunate belief that one cannot bring about change except through Delhi. This is completely contrary to what Gandhiji used to say: he emphasised starting from the grassroots. That is what I followed. When I saw that my agitation was having an effect at the local level,but the Centre was becoming more corrupt,I went to Delhi.

Girish Kuber: Another criticism of your agitation is that your associates seem to have chosen you instead of you choosing your associates. There was talk of roping in Abdul Kalam as an alternative leader.

Anna Hazare: We had spoken to Abdul Kalam but he did not like the idea. He said he would guide us,but expressed his inability to assume a position of leadership. There is no question of anyone choosing anyone. We had come together at the time of the agitation for RTI and later decided to work together as like-minded people.

Girish Kuber: Do you feel the Jan Lokpal Bill’s proposition for one body to keep a check on 1.5 crore government servants is feasible? You envision vast powers for the Lokpal. What if the Lokpal’s office itself becomes corrupt?

Anna Hazare: What we see is that 75 per cent of government funds are used for its own administrative purposes. Another 15 per cent goes into corrupt activities. As long as this system does not improve,nothing will change. Nobody can flash a magic wand to bring about economic growth.

Girish Kuber: Do you support a reduction in the government employee force?

Anna Hazare: Only a public movement can control such a problem. That is why another part of our movement is to create an alternative development model.

Instead of the government,we will ask industrialists to invest money and adopt villages. They will provide the money and we will provide the administration. For instance,Videocon has agreed to adopt seven villages. They have offered to invest Rs 10.5 crore.

Prashant Dikshit: During your August protest,people came out in large numbers to support you,But not so in December. Why?

Anna Hazare: I was unwell even before launching the fast and the organisation at the venue was not done well. I am not bothered about how many people join the movement. The support has not decreased. I am touring the country. Even in Tamil Nadu,I have seen huge crowds. People tell me they have never seen a Hindi-speaking person attract so many people there.

Prashant Dikshit: Hasn’t your castigation of politicians put

the voter in a quandary during elections?

Anna Hazare: I have never castigated politicians or called them useless. I believe in doing my work and not tarnishing anyone personally.

Suhas Gangal: What do you achieve by maintaining silence?

Anna Hazare: Due to me,the government also learns the language of silence. I use the weapon of silence only when discussions fail.

Girish Kuber: Do you agree that the issue of the Lokpal has been put on the backburner,that politicians have scored a point over you?

Anna Hazare: The Lokpal issue has not been sidelined. Lakhs of people have taken to the streets because it affects their daily life. Corruption and rising prices have made their lives impossible. Now they have found a platform to express their ire.

Girish Kuber: With your campaign,do you have an eye on the 2014 elections?

Anna Hazare: Once elections are announced,I will go to Ramlila Maidan and the people will also come out. Then,they (the government) will either have to bring in the new law or leave.

Prashant Dikshit: Are you,specifically opposing the

Manmohan Singh government?

Anna Hazare: What will happen if this government goes? Another one will come to power. The need is not to destroy the existing establishment but work within it. But if a government does not listen to the voice of the people,it should go.

Girish Kuber: On a personal level,does your popularity affect you in any way?

Anna Hazare: If something like this had happened,there would have been a change in my daily lifestyle. I have a firm belief that the success of a movement does not belong to me, it is God’s blessing.

Transcribed and translated by Swatee Kher & Neerad Pandharipande