• The Mughal emperor who was emperor only in name.

But still had enough prestige. That’s even more surprising.

• Shahanjah-e-alam Dilli sey Palam.

Now, he didn’t even have up to Palam. He just had the walls of the Red Fort. Zafar, by 1857. And yet, the prestige of the name is such that these Hindus from the opposite end of— now remember, these guys are from eastern UP and Bihar, they are not local guys from here — they go to Delhi and they ask Zafar to lead them. And the contrast of that with 1992, with the destruction of the Babri Masjid, is very striking.

• The fascinating thing is that here is this army, the majority of which is upper-caste Hindus.

Eighty-five per cent.

• Eighty-five per cent upper-caste Hindus who need a symbol, and this symbol for them is the Mughal emperor in Delhi. No matter how decrepit he is, but they want that symbol and they have no problem with the fact that he is a Muslim. Right?

Sure. What it implies is that the big division with the two great religions took place after 1857. Took place in the second half of the 19th century and not before. And I think that’s really important.

• I’ll come to that, but the other thing you talk about is how — a fascinating thing — how clerics are calling it a jihad. And you mentioned stirring lines of poetry where somebody says “now the sword of Islam has risen and now the Christian infidels are being driven out and destroyed”. And this is the end of, so to say, the Christian sway over the world.

... contd.