‘Mere laws will not help. This country needs a social transformation’

But Supreme Court judges and the Election Commissioners,there’s no role of civil society. The Election Commissioner is appointed by the government. But the institution has been given autonomy.

Correct. And I think this should be that way only,an autonomous body.

Shouldn’t the prime minister complete his term—five years,three years,whatever—and then be subjected to scrutiny? This country has had so many prime ministers already. Nobody has leaked this country’s secrets. Can’t we have that trust in our system?

You know,trust is one thing and making a system foolproof is another. If I am a good person,I don’t have to fear the law. Laws can be as strict as possible.

Yes,but laws can be misused by wrong people.

Yes,misuse is always there.

Because once you do this,the law will be misused.

No law should be draconian. No system is totally perfect,there will be loopholes in every system. That’s why experts should sit together and come to some conclusion.

But Guruji,where is the time? If you say that by August 15,this has to go through all parliamentary processes,otherwise I am sitting on a fast unto death…this is human bomb behaviour,pardon my saying so.

You know,sometimes commissions get formed and nothing happens for years and years. So this could have been such a pressure tactic to get things done quickly. Today you see all these scams. You never know if they will ever be punished. Tomorrow they will all be let out. Sometime deadlines should be given,so that things can move faster.

But shouldn’t there be flexibility?

Flexibility should be there. I am always for flexibility.

Parliament has the right to examine a law; parliamentary committees have the right to examine a law.

Correct,they should,but it should not take forever.

Yes,that’s for sure. By the same logic,if 10,000 Naxalites sat on a fast unto death and said,you change the system,finish Parliament,there will be dictatorship of the proletariat,or else,we are all dying.

Correct,I think that’s not the way.

Because you’ve been working with Naxalites.

Correct. They are wonderful people. The amount of commitment the Naxalites have is amazing. Because they are pained by the suffering that they have undergone in the last 60 years. No water,no electricity,no roads,no schools. It’s really pathetic. We run about 150 schools in these Naxal areas for poor children. About 18,500 kids study there. When you ask the children,‘What do you want to become?’ They say,‘I want to become a Naxalite.’ But now their mindset is changing.

So what do you tell the Naxalites?

I tell them leave violence. I tell them,‘you want social justice? It cannot be achieved through violence. Or by rubbishing democracy.’ So I would say,‘Lord Krishna is the first communist; you don’t have to learn from Karl Marx or Mao. Lord Krishna says Samam Sarveshu Bhuteshu. He who sees the sameness in everybody is the real human being. The real man with wisdom.’ I tell them,‘Social justice is ingrained in our culture. So you don’t have to rubbish all that is Indian and take the Maoist principle as your only goal. And that is the way to prosperity.’

And don’t rubbish this democracy?

Don’t rubbish democracy. They say they want to come to power on their own strength. I tell them,‘Look,your strength is not in your guns. Your strength is in your ability to serve people.

So what does it do to you when you hear about policemen getting massacred by them?

I am pained by this. All the time I keep telling them,‘See,they are your own brothers. They are just doing their job. Policemen are not your enemies. Policemen are one amongst you. He has a job and is working. He has his family,he has his children. Please don’t do that.’

One of your films shows that many of the Maoists have actually surrendered to you,have given up arms,and are contesting elections now.

During the Jharkhand elections,there was no violence. We are doing this job in Manipur too,of talking to them. All this happens when there is an inner transformation. Someone becomes a culprit because they are victims themselves. So you have to heal the victim first,the culprit disappears. So when people sit and do some meditation,deep breathing,and get rid of tension and insecurity,they are able to communicate better with people. We have done that with rowdy sheeters in Bangalore,Hyderabad and other places. They come here,and then they start doing medical camps and cleanliness camps in the slums.

Now comes my trick question. How does that then level with Anna Hazare saying that ‘Indian voters vote for one sari,Rs 500 and a bottle of liquor.’ Or with Prashant Bhushan saying that just because people got elected it doesn’t mean ‘they have power because you know how elections are won,they are won with money.’ Is this rubbishing of democracy or not?

I have nothing to comment on others’ opinions. I don’t have to agree with everything everybody is saying. I honour democracy of this country. At the same time,I am concerned about money power,about muscle power. But this doesn’t work always. In Tamil Nadu this year,it didn’t work.

So what advice will you give the government now? How does the government deal with this?

You know,I don’t give advice. If someone wants advice,they can come to me and then I will give them.

But when you were talking to Swami Ramdev,did the government get in touch with you? Mr Moily?

No. Incidentally,I spoke to Moily because of my father’s passing away. Then I told him I am going to Haridwar,meeting (Ramdev),that’s all. There was no such message from him.

Since you like to do conflict resolution,how will you resolve this conflict?

No,it has not come to that level yet. If there is a conflict like what happened with Baba Ramdev,then,of course,if I can be of some help,I will just jump in. But right now,I am not in daily touch with the committee or about what they are talking with each other. I have so many things happening around…

I know,you have a big event coming up in Berlin. Tell us a bit about that.

Yes,it has been 30 years of Art of Living. So we thought we will have a celebration. It is a reunion of people from all over the world. Europeans want it there. So we chose Berlin. And we’re going to do it in the stadium which was built by Hitler for World War. The place from where the call for war came,we want to give a peace call from the same place. So everyone thought it was a great idea. Seventy-five years of that Berlin Stadium,and 30 years of Art of Living there,trying to bring people from all over the world with one cause of uniting them as a family. Giving that new vision of Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam.

The entire world as a family?

The whole world as a family. For the first time,we will be having thirty pianos playing together in one place. We will have Canadian Aboriginals,native Canadians coming and singing. Also,people from Australia,Mongolia,from Japan,and a big troupe from India.

It’s remarkable how you have managed to balance spirituality with religion. Because there is spirituality,but no temple in this campus,I believe,to a god or to some gods.

See,spirituality is the essence of all religions. It’s where everyone can meet. In Hinduism,we have so many sects. There was one Jesus and there are 72 sects of Christianity. One Buddha,32 sects of Buddhism. One Prophet Mohammed and there are Shiite,Sunni,Ahmadiyyas and so many others. On religious levels,there will be so many differences. We don’t deny religion. Religion has its place.

You don’t deny religion,and you don’t call yourself god.

Correct. We are all made up of a substance called god.

Unlike some of the others,who call themselves bhagwaan.

You know,this is an ancient Vedanta that god is not up there,he is in your heart. He’s in you. If I am god,you are also god. God is love and the whole creation is made up of love. Made up of that consciousness. That is the message but it is being wrongly interpreted as ‘Only I am God.’

How will you use all this wisdom now,to bring some sanity back into this discussion? Because this could spin out of control.

It’s like when something is growing,there will be many developments. Formative troubles do come. But if everyone is focused on the result,what it is that they want to get from this,you will succeed. You can’t expect a road to be smooth throughout. Some rough moments do come.

So what will your advice to Anna Hazare be now? Given that you have a different view on fast unto death?

I will sit and talk to him on all that.

Because you know fast unto death,deadline,then on the counter you will get words like hijack,blackmail,ransom,so this is spinning out of control.

The main goal is that the Bill should come. I hope everyone works towards that.

So how involved has Art of Living been with India Against Corruption—the movement?

It’s one of the things. Art of Living has been engaged in so many social projects. We did the Meri Dilli Meri Yamuna project. It was a grand success. Before the Commonwealth Games,we did so much work. Now in Tamil Nadu,before the elections,we did the voter awareness campaign.

So if you can use new media etc and get Indians to just take these oaths—not to pay bribes,not to accept bribes,not to vote for money—then the problem can be tackled to a large extent.

Of course.

So is that what you will do now?

We are anyway doing this. I’ve been doing this for quite some time now.

On a larger scale?

Right now our focus is on Europe with this celebration. Also,we are trying to do some work in Ivory Coast and Sudan.

Coming back to the anti-corruption movement,we have now begun to see some authoritarian language. What I call,naani yaad dila denge language. For example,somebody saying that we will pass such a law that nobody will dare to be corrupt. As if locking up the whole country in jail is a solution. The Chinese execute 2,000 people every year for corruption,including governors of their provinces,and yet even in corruption they beat us,they are higher on Transparency International’s scale.

As I said before,mere laws will not help. A social transformation has to happen. Today there are more than a lakh orders from the Supreme Court which the government has not implemented. Similarly,there are 30,000 court orders in this state itself which have not been honoured. So laws can be there,orders could be passed by the court,but…

Awareness is the key?

Awareness is key. Transforming society,transforming people’s minds and hearts is the most important thing. If that is not there,laws will be just lying in libraries.

And laws may become cause of more corruption. Because to get around the law,people will pay bribe.

So it’s not just the law. That’s why I say we need to have a spiritual wave.

And a secular spirituality.

Spirituality is always secular,it includes everybody. We took one of the most notorious villages,Kathiawar,a village that had many court cases. But when people there sat together, they withdrew all their court cases. For the last three-and-a-half years they have been running a shop with no shopkeeper. People come and put the money in the box,they take whatever they need to take from the shop. It’s an unmanned shop just like you would find in Switzerland or somewhere else. Today,even Europe does not have such a level of integrity.

Switzerland is a sensitive word to mention now.

Why I said Switzerland is because I remember when I went there as a student,I saw the honesty there. It was impeccable honesty. People never used to lock their doors.

In this village I was telling you about,people have removed locks from their doors. And they all sit together every evening,do satsang,sing together,share among themselves. Their productivity has risen. Seeing this,nearly 300 other villages have started to adopt that model. So we need to bring the revolution or transformation from bottom up.

Not just top down with a law?

The blame culture should go. You know we are caught up in this blame culture. If anything happens you try to point a finger and blame somebody.

Now Swami Ramdev wants death sentence for corruption. How many people are you going to hang? We’ll be short of trees.

Laws have to be strict and strong. So if some people don’t work with transformation,then at least with fear they will.

But are you for death sentence for corruption?

No,I am always for transformation,not for a death sentence. Today death sentence has become sort of obsolete all over the world.

Even in India. Even though we have it,we almost never execute anybody. Once in ten years or so.

Lifetime imprisonment is good,though. But there also if you see the person has reformed,they should be given freedom to move around.

Before we go,look back seven years,since our last conversation. What has changed in India? Has India become a better country,a worse country?

You cannot generalise like that. There are parts which have become much better. There are parts which have become more corrupt. So it’s both. It’s like it’s day somewhere and night somewhere else.

But has the country progressed?

Economically,it has progressed. But if you ask me,is law and order or peace better,I would say not in all pockets,but in some pockets,yes. When I see Bihar,it makes me happy.

Gujarat?

In Gujarat,the development is so good. I have been to Gujarat several years ago. Saurashtra was starving then,there was no water there. And today you find greenery there.

And you will keep watching and observing.

And we’ll keeping walking the talk.

Transcribed by Akanksha Kapoor
(Concluded)