‘Never once in our association with Radia have we tried to subvert policies’

Shekhar Gupta: Prime Minister (David) Cameron told us that you are the largest employer in the private sector.

Ratan Tata: That’s turned out,yes,we are between Corus and JLR. JLR was the acquisition based strategically on products that we make — not the Jaguar part,but the Land Rover part. As both came together,we were obliged to take both; and I’m very pleased with Jaguar because I think it’s the company with tremendous technology embedded in it. And it’s been a very exciting period of time after we got over the downturn,which I think was a weight around our neck,which would in fact sink us.

Shekhar Gupta: Was there a moment when you thought that you had bitten off too much?

Ratan Tata: Actually,I never thought that we have bit off too much. I just didn’t know that we could go through the deep water of the downturn. My main concern was that all the initiatives that were in the pipeline should not stop,otherwise it would come out of the downturn the same way we went in. The product development plans,the R&D programme should continue.

Shekhar Gupta: And 26/11 came on top of that?

Ratan Tata: 26/11 came on top of that,and that affected the hospitality end of our business. The steel market collapsed worldwide coming out of this,and the banking system vapourised so you got hit the worst way from all sides.

Shekhar Gupta: What was the toughest night in that phase?

Ratan Tata: There were no toughest nights but there were several instances where we had to turn to Tata Sons to bolster … back us up or to back stop,or give a guarantee. And Tata Sons is also is not an infinitely deep pocket and so I had in fact a double responsibility — one is to see these companies through and second,to make sure that I didn’t in any way endanger the security of Tata Sons. I think that was my toughest period.

Shekhar Gupta: And then the attack came on top of that.

Ratan Tata: And then the attack came on top of it. Very emotional,and in fact something,even now,I feel difficult to control thinking back to the misery that was caused. It is such a needless,mindless loss of life…

Shekhar Gupta: Do you see a real danger of Indian entrepreneurs now actually preferring to go overseas,than invest in India?

Ratan Tata: It’s possible. Because today we have the ability to go overseas,opportunity for investments are there,and countries are very investment-friendly,trying to bring in investment. In India,the state wishes to be investment-friendly but when you look at fine print,you get stuck.

Shekhar Gupta: What was your experience in the investment commission,if I say that it may not have achieved that much.

Ratan Tata: Well,it didn’t achieve that much because…

Shekhar Gupta: That you,Ashok Ganguly,Deepak Parekh were formidable people…

Ratan Tata: I think we produced two documents which were worthy of view that I don’t think they have ever had… We had about 140 specific recommendations to improve the investment climate. We have never heard one way or another that A has been approved,B has been disapproved,etc. It’s just a black box into which it is gone and I just think that it was one of these commissions that was established… we helped some companies… What was our locus standi and what was our span of authority? Zero. That apart,I think it was a terrific exercise to look at the opportunities that there were in India and pin-pointing the areas,the roadblocks that we could take away that would make that happen… and I think there is a frustration that it didn’t do what it could do.

Shekhar Gupta: Did you share it with the prime minister?

Ratan Tata: Yes. The prime minister is very supportive. Although it didn’t go into details,he has been very supportive,and I think really wanted to see this happen. The goal he has set of having $10 billion (worth) investments actually took place,but I,in humility,must say not because of the investment commission,India itself just became more attractive.

Shekhar Gupta: Actually 10 billion became a much smaller figure because the world changed so rapidly…

Ratan Tata: That’s right,yes.

Shekhar Gupta: So Ratan,hopefully the murkiness would go,life would be back to normal. When that happens what’s next on agenda?

Ratan Tata: Oh,I don’t know Shekhar… I think,one way is not to make too many plans because the world gives you an opportunity to be quite flexible. And I think as one grows older,one wants to have the luxury of being more flexible and more tentative about what they want to do. So,as we go forward,what’s next is an issue of what the country,or…

Shekhar Gupta: I can see that defence and aerospace occupy your mindspace right now…

Ratan Tata: Yes,that’s of considerable interest. Also what occupies my mind just now is new ways to propel a motor car,you know,be it electric,be it hybrid,those new technologies are of great interest to me.

Shekhar Gupta: So are we waiting to see a Tata hybrid?

Ratan Tata: Yes,actually,there will be a Tata electric car on sale in the UK next year,that is,in the next few months. An Indica,but an electric Indica. And yes,you will see hybrids in our stable in the course of the next couple of years. JLR will have a hybrid… and so will Land Rover. These are interesting and intriguing technologies.

Shekhar Gupta: And the inevitable question. December 2012?

Ratan Tata: It will fall in November 2012. The search is underway. I’m not on the committee. I consciously decided to stay away from it. And this is something that is going to emerge… whenever it is. I think they have a list of people,whom they would look at. And I think,I keep saying,let them come forward with something,let’s not prejudge or extrapolate…

Shekhar Gupta: But in 2012,do you see,as you hang up your boots in active management role,do you see Tata as a global company or an Indian company or a foreign company?

Ratan Tata: Certainly not a foreign company; it will always be an Indian company,with an important international footprint. I would like to see it be considered as an international company of Indian origin.

Shekhar Gupta: So an MNC of Indian origin?

Ratan Tata: Yes.

Shekhar Gupta: And how do you spend your time,I know you are interested in flying and swimming,and certainly dogs — that’s the interest we share… but you have plans?

Ratan Tata: No I don’t have any plans,you know sometimes in cases like this you don’t want to make plans,you know,I said publicly that I would like to continue my interest in design and that’s something I’ll think through.

Shekhar Gupta: And what’s the point of retiring if you have to plan?

Ratan Tata: (Laughs) Good point… But you know Sunday is a kind of day that you say I don’t want to make any plans,and I hope that applies after December.

Shekhar Gupta: A week of seven Sundays…

Ratan Tata: That’s right. At least for a period of time that’ll be a luxury and then it might drag,and then I’ll find something to do.

Shekhar Gupta: Ratan,you deserve it so I hope you get your seven Sundays and I know they will be seven working Sundays.

Ratan Tata: I hope not.

Shekhar Gupta: Working on something that there are many opportunities to do…

Ratan Tata: Sure,it’s something.

Shekhar Gupta:Having this conversation with you is always such a privilege because besides everything else one learns so much.

Ratan Tata: Thank you.

Shekhar Gupta:Always inspirational talking to you.

Ratan Tata: Let me just tell you that you come to be somebody that I really respect because of the fact that you stand for,what you believe in and I have enjoyed every moment we have been able to share together,I hope that friendship will grow as we go forward.

Shekhar Gupta:Insha’allah . Thank you so much.

Ratan Tata: It’s something I’ll cherish. Thank you.

ON NIIRA RADIA

Shekhar Gupta: Never once in our association with her have we tried to subvert policies,move policy in our favour. Yes,we have advocated level playing fields,we advocated changes in policy through her or directly,but never once have we done something to exploit a policy issue. Never once have we used her to make payments or to seek favours,and we have had a good professional relationship with her. I think she is being attacked just now in a manner… as I said,every citizen deserves the right to be innocent until proven guilty,not to be considered guilty by the media.

Shekhar Gupta: And you think that it is unfair… the situation you find right now…?

Ratan Tata: It would appear so. I can’t really say,but I think all the sense one gets (that) there is someone and something behind it. It’s not just a natural thing.

Shekhar Gupta: And what (who) could it be? Rivals?

Ratan Tata: I do not know. It could be,could be rivals,enemies in the government,corporate rivals. I could not say but it’s not a natural thing.

Shekhar Gupta: In your interactions with her,did you ever worry that since she was working for the corporate world,you might get conflicted at some point?

Ratan Tata: Yes,and in fact,from time to time,I have voiced my concerns to Niira. In my statements,I confined it to our relationship. Because she represents more companies,statements are restricted to our professional relationship with her,which has been very good.

Shekhar Gupta: Because much later than she started working for you,she started to work for the Mukesh Ambani Group,which was again involved in a fairly messy situation. Did you see either a conflict or division of time and mindspace that may have affected your interest?

Ratan Tata: Certainly division of time. Yes,undoubtedly because she did it through a different company. I’m sure it took some of our time. In terms of conflict,Reliance Industries at that time had no conflict. They were in oil and gas and not in power,not in telecom and not in financial services.

Shekhar Gupta: But you were in conflict with the other Reliance in a way,in the marketplace…

Ratan Tata: Yes,we were in competition,but she didn’t represent them (Anil Ambani Group).

Shekhar Gupta: But she was representing you and the other body on the other side. The two brothers were engaged in a combat of a kind. It is complicated?

Ratan Tata: It could be complicated,I can’t say. Today,with the two sides coming together,I think there is more of a chance of conflict. Today Niira would eventually have to make up her mind what she wants to do…

Shekhar Gupta: Two sides coming together means that Anil and Mukesh have had a settlement. Is that what you are saying?

Ratan Tata: Yes. So now that Mukesh is in a position to enter the field of telecom or power,we have a potential conflict.

ON THE TATAS ENTERING DEFENCE

Shekhar Gupta: In defence,things are opening up now in a more transparent manner. And your group has expanded that a great deal…

Ratan Tata: Yes,and I hope we get away from this concept where — I even said in defence meetings — you or I are not considered less nationalist than the public sector and that only they can serve the nation. All over the world,in the free world,the private sector does the most sensitive defence work.

Shekhar Gupta: All over the free world,except France.

Ratan Tata: Even in France,there are private sector companies that do very sensitive work.

ON NATIONAL RESOURCES

Shekhar Gupta: Ratan,I am pushing the envelope and maybe I am digressing a bit. India is a funny country. We process so little ore,whether it’s iron,aluminum etc,while we have so much raw material. And yet,a country like China or Korea which has no resource,processes a lot more of it. Are we in effect transferring our jobs and our taxes and our revenues to smarter countries?

Shekhar Gupta: In terms of meeting the needs of our own growth?

Ratan Tata: Yes,and also in terms of creating value-added wealth here. Instead of exporting a lot of ore,if we had allowed our own capacity to expand in

Shekhar Gupta: India,it would be a lot better for us,wouldn’t it?

Ratan Tata: Absolutely. In fact,we are going to counter many years of Mr Nehru and Mrs Gandhi’s national criteria of being self-sufficient. Where we have the capability of being self-sufficient. Where today,we can equal the best manufacturing facility anywhere in the world or where now,as an open country,we can acquire technology. That’s the time when our wealth has been kept either on the ground or underground or is going to people who are exporting that national resource. National resource today should be one of our key issues. It should have value-added.

Shekhar Gupta: Have you raised it with policy makers in Delhi?

Ratan Tata: At various times,yes.

Do you find traction?

Shekhar Gupta: You know one of the ills we have is there are issues that are state issues,and there are central issues and in between the two sometimes nothing happens.

Ratan Tata: But mining leases are also the biggest ATM in our politics in the last few years. Besides change of land use,mining leases have become the second most productive ATM.

Because natural resources globally have just gone through the roof. For years and years,nobody bothered about iron ore. Suddenly,iron ore and coal — Coal India has been sitting on a sea of coal all these years but suddenly it has become an issue,the value of which on a global basis is considered to be enormous.

On Maran and Raja

Shekhar Gupta: Will you take us through what happened between you and Dayanidhi Maran because that is again something we heard in whispers.

Ratan Tata: I wouldn’t want to go into that because I think that has been abused at various times and it was not my intention to abuse it. So,I think that should just be left alone. But we had differences,I don’t know why and if Raja was going to create a more level playing field — in a way he may have done many things wrong,but he did some things right. He opened up the industry… and made it a part of a bigger industry. He or whoever it may be,will need to deal with people who have extra spectrum,should they pay for it,return it… They have deprived others of that spectrum. As of now,we still don’t have any spectrum in Delhi and 39 other areas for no reason. Other people have got it,yet other people are hoarding spectrum for free. So,there were inequalities and inequities in the telecom area which still need to be solved.