‘People expect transparency for others and not for themselves’

Ajay Khape: You were involved in drafting the Maharashtra Act. Are you happy with the implementation? And can any changes be made?

VK: The training imparted is not up to the mark. Many Public Information Officers (PIO) don’t know what is to be done as only some PIOs are trained. All higher officials have excluded themselves from the implementation. You won’t find a single collector or a deputy collector as a PIO or an appellate authority. This is decentralisation at its peak. We have recommended in each and every report that a PIO should be a senior officer and the first appellate authority should be a fairly senior gazetted officer. But it is not happening.

The implementation is also not satisfactory as out of 2,300-2,400 pending appeals,nearly 800 have been filed by 60 people. In one of the districts in this area in 2009,2,300 applications were filed,out of which 1,300 were done by one individual. Secondly,the act hasn’t really reached the last point of the society. The middle class is rarely using it. Some people from the slums use it to an extent. Percentage wise,only the urban middle class is using it. In rural areas,land matters are being raised through the Act. But you can only find information related to land matters and not the solutions through RTI.

Nisha Nambiar: Are you satisfied with the way the media is using it?

VK: I don’t think the media is using it enough. Many newspapers and channels give publicity to some activists without confirming the facts. And the issues don’t have to be big cases all the time. For instance,one person wanted to know about the distribution of scholarships to rural students. That scholarship needs certain recommendation from certain sections and the act provides all the information. When he asked for this information,the officer replied that everything has been done according to the act. This person wanted to know about the names of the students and recommendations. They replied that everything had been done according to legal provision. Then he went for the first appeal. There also he found the same answer because the government machinery helps each other. After that he went for the second appeal which came to me. After I issued the notice of hearing,the officer called the person and asked him why he had gone to the officer and that they would settle the matter between them. However,the person insisted that he wanted the information. Then the officers gave him in writing that there was an error in the scholarship distribution which would be rectified. And to our surprise,in one of the talukas,nearly Rs 12 lakh was recovered which was wrongly given. This was not published in any newspaper. He was a very poor man. But he fought for a social cause. In most areas,scholarship distribution is done in this way.

Sunil Kaduskar: The RTI is also used for blackmailing at times. Can you make that out from the applications?

VK: Once you go through the application,you can sense its motive. In 80 per cent of the situations,you can read between the lines.

Sunil Kaduskar: But there are a lot of people who submit an application just to trouble the officer. Is there anything that can be done for this?

VK: How do you differentiate? So many people file complaints against me. Once a press conference was held to show that I was involved in corruption..What can I do about it..?

Abhijeet Ghorpade: How many people in percentage actually apply just to blackmail ?

VK: I can’t say that. Recently one person filed 50-55 appeals. He then complained to me that his life is in danger. I could only tell the police about it and ask for his security. Anna Hazare’s trust does not need to abide by the RTI Act as per a High Court order. Still his trust has an information officer and an appellate officer. They give all the information with full transparency. But how many of those who work in NGOs are ready to have this kind of transparency?

Ishfaq Naseem: Is there any provision for action against officials?

VK: As far as the government machinery is concerned,there are enough provisions. Disciplinary action can be taken against officials if they are not responding to queries within the stipulated period of time. The problem is with the applicants. Every month we put up a notice about the number of appeals received in the last month and the number of appeals filed by an individual. This indirectly tells people that certain individuals are using RTI very efficiently. Pune,Satara,Sanghli,Solapur and Kolhapur come under my jurisdiction. Pune has the maximum pendency followed by Solapur and Sangli. When someone files 100 applications,we cannot take up the applications chronologically as we will be doing injustice to lots of others. So I take up the appeals proportionwise. It has been declared that if a person is filing more than five appeals,only one appeal will be taken into consideration in a month,which will avoid a long wait of 2-3 years for those filing genuine applications. Once a person wanted some information about an educational institute founded by some farmers in a rural area to facilitate educational facilities for their children. They donated and sold their land to get the money. The applicant wanted to know things like how many toilet blocks were built there in the last 25 years,how many times they had been repaired and how many divisions were there for boys and girls. The institute replied that they don’t have any money for all the work. They said when somebody comes with donation,they ask them to construct toilets. So this person said it was corruption. Then he went for first appeal to the education officer who knew the institute. He still held a hearing,asked the committee to give the details. Then the hearing came to me. You will be surprised to know,the chairman of the institute came in a torn dhoti and chappals. All the directors of the institute said they were poor farmers and were being harassed by the applicant as there was a lot of open plot adjacent to the institute and the applicant was interested in getting it. He had asked these farmers to appoint him as the director of the institute. In such cases,RTI is being misused.

Sunanda Mehta: Are such appeals outnumbering the genuine ones?

VK: My fear is,it is going in that direction. But at the same time,the common man is using the act very effectively and its benefits cannot be denied. Transparency in the government machinery is remarkable. But I see that the corrupt in the society and the government machinery will unite. But today,this section has not outnumbered the genuine ones. Even if their percentage is not much,the signs are alarming and we need to be careful.

Sushant Kulkarni: You have said it is important to pose the right questions in the right manner. Is something being done to train people regarding this and create awareness?

VK: I expect social organisations and NGOs to take up this initiative and educate people. One person wrote in his application that Shankar and Parvati were sitting on Kailash and when they came to earth,a person served them after which a pleased Parvati asked Shankar to bless him. The person wanted his name to be immortal so Shankar said a tribe will be recognised by his name. The applicant wanted to know about the discussion between Shankar and Parvati,the details of the trip to earth and the person who served them and how the entire incident was carried out. The officer replied that this information was not available with the department and unofficially he told the applicant that to find these answers he would have to go to the Kailash.

Sunil Kaduskar: Is there a way by which you need not take up all of such applications?

VK: For some cases you can easily find a solution. Like once a teacher wanted to know about the procedure for finding about one’s land records. The PIO replied saying refer to the land revenue code which is easily available in the market. In the hearing,I decided in his favor that whatever the PIO is saying is right. If the information is easily available in the market then RTI is not needed for it. Then someone took out a circular against me saying the commissioner does not know the act. What to ask is not as important as how the person is asking. Suppose someone is not getting his pension even after 2-3 years of his retirement,and if someone files an appeal asking why this is happening,the PIO will have no answer. The correct question would be ‘what action has been taken about my pension’.

Abhijeet Ghorpade:Do you think the idea for which this Act was formed is getting fulfilled? And what are the positive changes that you have noticed?

VK: The transparency that is expected from all government machinery from this act cannot be done in a single day. But transperancy has been noticed with officers not willing to share anything earlier. Even with departments like police. Earlier,they wouldn’t entertain people like this,now when they hear someone has applied an RTI enquiry they respond. This has also ensured record maintainance. Those who do good work are being motivated. Copies of answer sheets of certain government recruitment examinations were asked for. But that was denied under secrecy. But I didn’t agree. I said the SC and HC has ruled that the copies cannot be given but that is applicable for academic examinations. Recruitment examinations are for public purposes. Whatever is being done for the public and by the public should be transparent.

Once a young man appeared for the gram sevak’s exam. He was denied the copy as he was declared failed. Then he went to the court and the officer told me that they were going to file an affidavit saying whatever stand they had taken was correct. There were 30 vacancies for the post. Next day when the officer went through the papers,he told me whatever the boy was claiming was true and he was among the top 10 scorers. Then I requested him to give the student the answersheet and not file the affidavit. Later,the officer filed an affidavit saying the boy had passed the examination and will be appointed. He was recruited later. This could happen only because the answer sheet was made available.

Aaditi Jathar: What do you have to say about implementation at the district court level?

VK: Suppose you have filed a case. PIOs have a bad habit of replying but since the matter is subjudice,no information can be given. The SC has ruled that unless and until specifically prohibited,no information can be denied. I have asked people to show me the stay orders from the court. If that is not available,information cannot be denied.

Sunil Kaduskar: What will make the numbers of unnecessary applications decrease?

VK: Section 4 provides for suo moto declaration of many points. But in most cases,government authorities have not implemented it fully. I have written to 300-400 government offices in the last four years. Wherever Section 4 has been implemented properly,50 per cent appeals have come down. However,it is not being done at offices of the PMC,collectorate area and the police commissioner’s office.

Sunanda Mehta: What are the chances of private companies coming under the ambit of RTI?

VK: I dont see that happening. It is difficult. Transparency should be there for all but how it is to be used is more important. People expect transparency for others and not for themselves.