‘People say I am moving too fast,but I am 18 years late (in initiating reforms in education)’

Kapil Sibal: Thank you Shekhar.

•Shekhar Gupta: Is that characterization something you agree with?

Kapil Sibal: I entirely agree. I think it’s a big challenge,a moment of great opportunity and I think if we fail now,I think we will have failed generations to come.

•Shekhar Gupta: because you know on the issue of education reforms this country has not hit a sweet spot because if you read Nandan Nilekani and idea takes a long time getting accepted in India.

Kapil Sibal: That’s right.

•Shekhar Gupta: But once it doe get accepted you can’t loose that moment.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely and if you loose it now,I’ll tell you this is a historic moment. The country wants change. Change is required because of the enormous challenges we face. By 2020 we are going to have something like 60 million young people who should be graduates. What’s going to happen to them? I wonder and I worry.

•Shekhar Gupta: If nothing…if you do nothing 9/10ths of them will be applying for peon’s jobs or …or…or…or…will be working as security guards,if at all?

Kapil Sibal: you know but what happens to all the spaces that are required where all these people need to take this nation forward? What kind of education will they get? What kind of graduates will they be?

•Shekhar Gupta: Absolutely.

Kapil Sibal: What areas should they move towards? What kind of quality education are we going to give to them? What kind of opportunities are going to go to them?

•Shekhar Gupta: Now you have security guards who carry PHDs?

Kapil Sibal: Exactly. So…

•Shekhar Gupta: Worth nothing.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. And basically why do we say the retail sector is the most heavily employed sector in this country? Why? Because at the end of you B.A you can do nothing. You ultimately say Mein Dukaan Lagga Leta Hoon (I’ll set up a shop).

•Shekhar Gupta: right.

Kapil Sibal: So all B.A graduates are somewhere shopkeepers. You can’t be a nation where all your B.A graduates are shopkeepers and there is no quality education which is really the seed which takes the country forward.

•Shekhar Gupta: Do you agree that there is a sweet-spot now in terms of public opinion,political mood…

Kapil Sibal: Yes. Yes.

•SG:…the mood of this coalition,your Prime Minister?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. I think everybody is clear that you need reform in this sector. I don’t think everybody is clear what the reforms should be and how we should go about it,but everybody is clear that we need to change fast. Our school education needs to change. The quality of that needs to change but I think people have now realised its not so much quantity as quality because ultimately it’s the quality that builds the nation.

•Shekhar Gupta: But quality that is available in reasonable quantities?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely.

•Shekhar Gupta: Because you know in this college you can get 97.76 per cent and yet not make it.

Kapil Sibal: Yes but that is because of lack of expansion.

•Shekhar Gupta: That’s why I said that’s why you need quantity.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely.

•Shekhar Gupta: This college should be three times it size.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. The college should be three times its size,there should be three times the number of colleges…

•Shekhar Gupta: Right.

Kapil Sibal: You know of the quality of St Stephen’s. So you should let other players come into the market. Should be allowed to put in their…

•Shekhar Gupta: so all the St Stephen’s around the country should be allowed to expand their brand.

Kapil Sibal: And not just expand their brand in India…Abroad.

•Shekhar Gupta: Abroad.

Kapil Sibal: Why not abroad right? And why not have more quality institutions of this nature? And you need to build up faculty. You can’t build a college without faculty. So you need to give impetus to faculty.

•Shekhar Gupta: But that is where you start getting into trouble because you have got …one of the great panoply of three letter words in Delhi,the dreaded three latter words – U.G.C. Thou should pay your teachers this much but thou shall not pay more.

Kapil Sibal: Well you know…

•Shekhar Gupta: The corollary is thou…thou shall charge your students this much. Thou shall not charge more.

Kapil Sibal: That is…there are two things you have to do. Number one,you have to give space to the institution. Right?

•Shekhar Gupta: Right.

Kapil Sibal: If you really talk about autonomy,you must allow them to innovate,not just in terms of finance but in terms of the courses they want to teach. Right? Allow them to enter into public-private partnerships. Allow them to use the land that they have for innovative purposes. Right? Allow them to pay their faculty. Right?

•Shekhar Gupta: This college has 25 acres of land.

Kapil Sibal: Exactly.

•Shekhar Gupta: And it teaches 1,100 students.

Kapil Sibal: Its too little. Too little. And nowadays in big cities you don’t have colleges at one place. You go to a city like Paris,you have a university that are spread across the city because there is no space. Right?

•Shekhar Gupta: Right.

Kapil Sibal: So we should forget about those concepts also. You can have a college that is spread across the city.

•Shekhar Gupta: Ans where a college or institution has land enable them to expand?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. And allow public-private-partnerships. Here if the college sources money on its own,the government will say stop the aid or the extent of the aid that is given…you adjust the extent of the aid to the extent of the finances.

•Shekhar Gupta: So basically you punish for raising their money.

Kapil Sibal: For raising their money. This kind of…This kind of mind-set needs to change.

•Shekhar Gupta: Can you change this within the structure of vested interests? I know public opinion is with you now. Political opinion is with you,but there is a strong vested interest.

Kapil Sibal: Where there is a will there is a way. We can change it and I tell you vested interest cannot come in the way because now all expert bodies,whether it is the Knowledge Commission or the Yashpal Committee,you know I just came back form Paris,I came back in the morning attending a conference on higher education and everybody is talking about the same thing – Expansion,Equity and Quality. So the global mood is that. the national mood is that and how can vested interests come in the way. I don’t think…

•Shekhar Gupta: Tell me,you are a lawyer. You have been known to make an argument in three minutes in the Supreme Court. You have been trained to do that. Tell me,your first brush with vested interests in your sector?

Kapil Sibal: Well I can tell you this,let me talk of higer education.

•Shekhar Gupta: Right.

Kapil Sibal: In higher education the stumbling block is going to be existing institutions.

•Shekhar Gupta: Right.

Kapil Sibal: And the bureaucracy in those institutions and those who have nurtured themselves and their interests and I think what is…so when I try to change the system to have an overarching independent regulatory authority by subsuming the U.G.C and the A.I.C.T.E in it then you will start having voices…

•Shekhar Gupta: Because these…these are big rent collecting institutions.

Kapil Sibal: Yes,big rent collecting institutions. Big institutions which can stop processes from happening and feed on them. I don’t mean the entire institution. I mean people within the system benefit from it hugely and we need to set up a system hat distances itself from the government. That is comprised of men of the highest quality who know…who are academicians and who know their businee.

•Shekhar Gupta: So when do we see your overarching regulatory body come in.

Kapil Sibal: Within six months.

•Shekhar Gupta: Within six months?

Kapil Sibal: Yes. Within six months you will see that happen. But remember this that when you are talking about higher education you are serving about 12.4 per cent of the populace because for every 100 students that are passing out of high school 12.4 go to each college. So you are talking…but that 12.4 per cent goes on to create intellectual property.

•Shekhar Gupta: But you can double that?

Kapil Sibal: Double…

•Shekhar Gupta: But that is too little?

Kapil Sibal: Double it too little. Global average is 27.What you need to do is make it 30-35. Right?

•Shekhar Gupta: Right.

Kapil Sibal: And therefore you will…you will…

•Shekhar Gupta: You know we are a country short of land. We are a country short of natural resources. We need to build our man power.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. And we can because we have enormous capacities.

•Shekhar Gupta: We have to mine our people.

Kapil Sibal: Any country,if you see the history of the world,any country which has moved forward,you take the industrialised world,the gross enrolment ratio in the Americas and Europe is 70. Seven-Zero. Ours is 12.4. The gross enrolment ratio in Sub-Saharan Africa is six.

•Shekhar Gupta: And we are a knowledge economy?

Kapil Sibal: We are a knowledge economy.

•Shekhar Gupta: 60 per cent of our economy is based on service.

Kapil Sibal: On the service sector. It is that minuscule minority that is providing the fuel for this nation. We need to expand that base. The pyramid must be large for us to move forward. So my focus in the next few months is going to be school education .The right to education. Right? So that you expand the base there. So that you get enough of…of…of….of our sub-strata to make it critical.

•Shekhar Gupta: While at the same time working on higher educatiom?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. Absolutely.

•Shekhar Gupta: Removing the bottle-necks? Otherwise what do the kids do once they go out of….

Kapil Sibal: Remember that today there are two objectives that we need to fill. Number one,you need to work with industry. See a lot of young people,not a lot of them want to become Doctors or PHDs. They don’t want to. Many of them say that after our technical degrees we want to work or after class 12 we want to work or after a polytechnic diploma want to work. So you need to find where the opportunities are and who best to tell you the industry. So you need to bring the industry into the system.

•Shekhar Gupta: I think…I think the industry is going to be a big ally for you right now but Kapil when you talk of vested interests. There are vested interests also in the political class although they work both ways. If you look at the Parliament websites now and look at the professions MPs mention,the one found most frequently ids Educationist.

Kapil Sibal: That’s true.

•Shekhar Gupta: So many of them now own colleges,universities,Deemed universities.

Kapil Sibal: But look you know…you know what I am wanting to do? I want to say to them look we do not want to harm you. You want to run your institutions,run them. But there is a benchmark. That benchmark must be provided by independent authorities. Right? You have an accreditation system. If you…If you pass the benchmark you are free to run your institution. If you can’t pass the benchmark…

•Shekhar Gupta: So since you made your first opening statement,your opening gambit,what is the most nasty thing that has been said to you by somebody? Or that’s been said about it by somebody?

Kapil Sibal: He is moving too fast and quite frankly I think those who are making that remark are reacting quite quickly. I am not moving too fast. I am 18 years too late. If I can do it today,I will do it today. The system does not allow me to do it today.

•Shekhar Gupta: Why 18 years? Are you linking it to 1991?

Kapil Sibal: Yes.

•Shekhar Gupta: So you are saying education reform should have accompanied economic refirm?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely.

•Shekhar Gupta: Because you know,its amazing,one thing the people of India,the tax-payers have never complained about is education cess. So everybody is even willing to pay for education provided they are convinced that this will be used well.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. Absolutely. No. No. Nobody is against the reform process. People…because the reform process touches every family,every individual,every young woman,so everybody has an opinion about education. So people are concerned about which route should we take. For example,you take the issue of class 10 there is a lot of opinion which says please don’t abolish class 10 because we need a benchmark. We need an exam…

•Shekhar Gupta: Otherwise too many schools will pass everybody.

Kapil Sibal: Exactly. Exactly. And to that extent they are right which is why at the initial pronouncement I said I don’t want to introduce this in every school in India. I want to start with the CBSE system. Right? And when you start with the CBSE system all the schools affiliated with it,which are till class 12,in only those schoolw will…will I say Ok…from class 10 till class 11 you need not….

•Shekhar Gupta: So when are you going to start it for CBSE?

Kapil Sibal: Well hopefully by the end of the…by the beginning of the next academic year.

•Shekhar Gupta: Right. Then….then…then learn from that experience.

Kapil Sibal: Learn from that experience. Now what is happening is that the Medical Council of India has said that one exam will be….Law faculty…the Legal profession there is one exam. Right? You have NET. That’s one exam. So I think down the road,seven-eight-10 years down the road you should have one exam for entry into the university system. Take International Baccalaureate. Right? What’s happening in International…all students in that process,all over Europe,are sitting for that exam. They may be French. They may be German. Its one exam. So now you have the Ballonia process that is going on in Europe. They want to standardize the exam among all the forty countries. Why? Because they want mobility of population. So if they standardize the exam a German or Polish person can move to France or Spain. Right? Because he has a degree that is recognized in all forty countries.

•Shekhar Gupta: So why can’t that happen from Karnataka to Haryana for example?

Kapil Sibal: Exactly. Exactly. Because what states are doing is they are punishing our kids.

•Shekhar Gupta: How?

Kapil Sibal: By saying that we are going to let you sit for the Board exam,the state board exam. The quality of the students in the State Boards,as everybody knows is relatively poor. The pass percentages sometimes is 27 per cent. So you condemn them to mediocrity. They have no mobility because they don’t’ match up to the Central Board system. Right? So there is lack of opportunity in jobs. So you are condemning them. Why do you want to condemn your own students and your own people. But this can’t happen overnight till you improve the quality of State Boards and state schools. And that will take five-seven years. So I want to engage with all the States and the State education ministers to see how this can be done.

•Shekhar Gupta: So how come an impression has grown,I know you can blame the media,you are most welcome to,that since you made that first statement you have been backtracking?

Kapil Sibal: No,not at all. I am reiterating all that I said.

•Shekhar Gupta: Are you having second thoughts about anything you said.

Kapil Sibal: Not at all. Not at all. But I am willing to have a dialogue with everybody,with all stake holders. I am willing to learn. I am willing to modulate. I am willing to say Ok if this route is not acceptable we will take another route,but the objective has to be there. The objective has to be ultimately a process which is equitous for everybody. You know,imagine all students in India sitting for one exam and you know people are saying but there is diversity in India. But what diversity is there in Mathematics? In Physics? In Chemistry? In Biology? What diversity are we talking about? When you talk about diversity maybe history,maybe language…You can have your diversity in history and language. But Mathematics,Biology,Zoology,Anthropology,Physics,what diversity? What regional diversity are you talking about? You are just condemning your people to mediocrity. I don’t think India deserves that…our people deserve that.

•Shekhar Gupta: So going ahead,you spoke 15 days back,so 85 days left. Has your 100 day agenda changed after that opening statement.

Kapil Sibal: No. No. No. No. The Right to education Bill will be passed in this session. I am preparing myself for that. I said I will create a legislation for malpractices in educational institutions. That is ready. It has gone for inter-ministerial consultations.

•Shekhar Gupta: Your foreign university Bill is ready?

Kapil Sibal: The foreign university Bill is ready. That I am sending to the Cabinet. Right? My… All other policy initiatives like the independent Regulatory framework we are already working on. That is taking into account the Yashpal Committee report,the Knowledge Commission,so that we are working on. Deemed universities,the announcement that I made,I am working on. We are getting a report within 90 days and we will take action. And once the Regulatory Authority comes everything will be sorted out. The school system and the curricula,we are working on. So there is nothing….

•Shekhar Gupta: No. Look at this new Central universities you are going to set up. Now,if I may say so,you were trumped by your predecessor because ha made all the appointments of Vice-Chancellors before the universities came in,before you came in. How do you ake sure these do not become just any other new universities?

Kapil Sibal: They won’t. They won’t. See what I am doing is of these universities they are 20 new ones. Right? 20 are going to be world class and there are 20 existing ones. The existing ones there are no problems.

•Shekhar Gupta: which are to be upgraded?

Kapil Sibal: Which are going to be upgraded. That is no problem at all. As far as the new ones are concerned you may have a Vice-Chancellor who has been appointed but everything else the Curricula,the quality of the infrastructure,the quality of the faculty,all that si yet to be….

•Shekhar Gupta: Because the Bain of our university system…Kapil you know,having studied all the while in one of the finest colleges in India and then oversees,is just internal politics and lack of political or academic freedom.

Kapil Sibal: But you see whichever Vice-Chancellor is there,he is not going to determine that unless you there is a system…

•Shekhar Gupta: You went to Harvard. You could disagree with your professors.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. We would.

•Shekhar Gupta: You could take a completely different line be rewarded for it. Try that in India.

Kapil Sibal: That is the point you see. That is why we want a completely different system of assessment. Why should marks be the only basis of moving forward? Well,in some cases it has to be.

•Shekhar Gupta: PHD scholars for instance,where so much depends on your supervisor. So much of India’s PHD research is rubbish because you just repeat what your supervisor believes in. See this is the mind-set we have to change.

•Shekhar Gupta: I will tell you,there is a PHD given in the university in U.P with the title,Hindi Sahitya mein Lotte ka Mahitve or the importance of the Lotta in Hindi literature. Somebody has passed it. We have just cheapened our research,our PHDs,our higher education.

Kapil Sibal: Ya. But you know,that is where we need to move forward. See the national agenda has to be motivated to be excellent in areas where the Nation will benefit.

•Shekhar Gupta: You know Kapil at least technology,engineering,management,medical science,you have got IITs,AIIMS,IIMs,but social sciences,liberal arts you have got nothing.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. I completely agree with you because we never looked about those courses as courses that brought about excellence in civilized society. We treat them as you know people who are good for nothing.

•Shekhar Gupta: Exactly.

Kapil Sibal: If you did literature or social sciences.

•Shekhar Gupta: If you couldn’t…If you couldn’t get into science.

Kapil Sibal: If you couldn’t get into the sciences. This is the mind-set that we need to chnge because there is so much that we need to learn.

•Shekhar Gupta: Forget historians and Sociologists,we are not even producing Economists now.

Kapil Sibal: Exactly. That is the point. It is because we are not giving sufficient importance to the social sciences and I think they are as important as Physics or Chemistry or Mathematics or any other discipline. We need to encourage that. the reason is the possibility of employment…They’re being respected by society…being looked upon as icons right?

•Shekhar Gupta: Right. Right.

Kapil Sibal: The Indian milieu does not accept that unfortunately as we do scientists and in other fields. I think we need to give them space. If we encourage social sciences they will get that.

•Shekhar Gupta: So tell me something,from the day you got the call from the Prime Minister that this will be your job,I know you wanted this portfolio and I know how much you did not want law,from that day to now are you feeling more encouraged or are you feeling a bit disillusioned?

Kapil Sibal: No. No. Most encouraged. Not at all disillusioned.

•Shekhar Gupta: You are not seeing limitations to what change you can bring about.

Kapil Sibal: No. Not at all. Nobody…Nobody has said to me look you have taken a wrong step forward. Right? People have said I may not agree with you here. I may not agree with you there,But it’s the right thing to do.

•Shekhar Gupta: Right.

Kapil Sibal: And that is what encourages me.

•Shekhar Gupta: Well not only do you have the job with the most opportunity and challenge but you also have to job with the most support and sympathy.

Kapil Sibal: Oh Absolutely.

•Shekhar Gupta: So you are implementing many ideas whose time has come?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. An idea as the prime Minster says whose time has come cannot be stopped.

•Shekhar Gupta: On that note Kapil wising you the very best and hoping we have many more conversations not just in your alma mater but in many other St Stephens around the country.

Kapil Sibal: Thank you. Thank you.

•Shekhar Gupta: thank you very much.

Transcript prepared by Uttara Varma