Opinion ‘She was always the boss’

I was the last person to meet Mrs Gandhi on the night of October 30. I had come back late at night from Rae Bareilly. General elections were due in the country and she wanted to see my final list of candidates. For about a week before this,she had been behaving strangely. She had gone to a public meeting in Sultanpur. Rajiv and I were to go on to Gorakhpur. But she asked us not to go,for security reasons. We pooh-poohed her concerns. She called up my wife,asked her to intervene. She had never done this before. Then,she suddenly said she wanted to go to Kashmir,to see the leaves change. The PM couldn’t just take off suddenly,so we had to invent reasons for the visit. In the house,there was constant pressure to change the (Sikh) bodyguards. She had been disturbed ever since Operation Blue Star.

What are your memories of the day of the assassination? And the terrible violence it set in motion against Sikhs?

I reached the hospital when they were wheeling her out. Sonia was distraught. Rajiv was on tour. I left for the house to see the children (Rahul and Priyanka). The gates were open,there wasn’t a single security guard in sight. It took half an hour to secure the PM’s house,so you can imagine what was happening in the rest of the city. On the same day,I spoke to some people in the party. Continuity was most important. There are no vacancies in government. If (President) Gianiji,(also out of Delhi at the time) did not come back in time,I had decided (Vice President) Venkataraman would swear in Rajiv. When I went to receive Gianiji at the airport,he asked me,have you taken the decision? I said yes. We fixed the time of the swearing-in. I dropped him at the hospital and went back to get Rajiv. In the car,he only asked — is it the same person? Satwant Singh (one of Indira’s assassins) was the guard at Akbar Road; we had all seen the hatred in his eyes. There have been several conspiracy theories about that day — that Pranab (Mukherjee) or Gianiji opposed Rajiv as PM. But where was the conspiracy? It was the logical decision. No one said anything. Later,someone said a meeting should have taken place. But in politics there can’t be any vacancies.

The Congress is still haunted by the 1984 violence — it is seen as an organised pogrom. 

Rajiv did everything in his power to stop the rioting. There was complete breakdown of law and order. The Army has a drill,it needs time. The looting had started. It was the Gujjars,villagers… Today we are used to a security syndrome. There was no culture of security at that time. Once something like this had happened,there was no protection. After the event,it took six months to a year for security systems to be put in place. The prime minister had what is known as ‘Y’ level of security today — 1 PSO,1 gunman. We (Rajiv and I) would have lunch with Mrs Gandhi and if we went on to Parliament with her,to make place in the car,we would leave the PSO behind. On the second day of the rioting,I found Madhu Dandavate shouting at the gate of the PM’s house. I got him inside. He said this is happening. I spoke to the LG,the police. I said Dandavate cannot be lying. They said things are being taken care of but they had done nothing. Later,I recommended to Rajiv that anyone connected to it (the violence) has to go,names are not important. Things had gone out of control. But when you are in a position of responsibility,you have to handle a crisis. I will say this,my reaction would have been far more ruthless in the next couple of days.

If they could have acted in a few hours,if there were shoot at sight orders,it could have been controlled. But all of this is wisdom in hindsight. Today,with all the hyper security,you cannot prevent Maoists from taking away a train with nearly 600 people on board. About the violence being organised,I don’t know. If someone has done it,they should hang. But I find it very difficult to believe that it was organised. Individuals could have done it.

Some accounts of Operation Bluestar — and the Emergency — paint the picture of a leader misled. They suggest that Indira Gandhi was pressured into those decisions by advisors.

I knew Mrs Gandhi was unhappy at the turn of events in Punjab. She did a lot of pujas before Blue Star,attended by the four of us — Rajiv,Sonia,my wife and I. Everyone took the hardline position on Punjab,the bureaucracy as well as political leadership. She was the only dove among the hawks. She was reluctant because she understood politics. These things cannot be solved by force. She understood what it meant to go in (the Golden Temple). She was hoping for a miracle. But she was no misled leader. In 1984,she tried very hard,there were long negotiations,but neither the Akalis nor anyone else wanted to take responsibility. Everyone was playing to the gallery. She looked for a solution but there was no political solution. But to assume that she was run by someone else,that’s out of the question. She was always the boss.

Going back to 1980,had things changed in her second coming,after the Emergency? It is said she became more insecure of her power,and the PMO became a power centre as never before.

When she came back in 1980,Sanjay was totally in control. She was not running the party. He was. All cabinet appointments,everything. Mrs Gandhi and Sanjay worked in perfect coordination. All chief ministers were his choices,the states were under his control. If she wanted to adjust 5-6 colleagues somewhere,he didn’t oppose it. But he was running the politics.Between 1977-79,all party work was handled by Sanjay. She had not changed,but the situation had changed. She adjusted to it. But there was no question of the PMO becoming more powerful.

She is seen as the Congress’s first dynast. 

She did not push any of us into politics. Sanjay was keen I should fight an election. For Rae Bareilly,they wanted someone from the family. Sanjay said come and talk to mummy. But she badgered me for one hour. She gave me all the negatives,she was testing me,that was her style. When she realised I had made up my mind,she said the UP wallahs are sitting outside,now you deal with them. She threw me to the wolves — I,in my polo neck sweater and blazer. The next day we were off campaigning. Then in 1981,after Sanjay died,there were 6 bypolls in UP,including in Amethi and Allahabad. Rajiv had said he was interested in fighting polls. Sonia was opposed to it. But,contrary to perceptions of him being the reluctant politician,he had made up his mind. She had not talked to him about it. She asked me — Allahabad or Amethi? We kept it open till the last minute. She left on tour. She never pushed him.

You were the first of the computerwallahs in the Congress.

It was only a section of the media that created a fuss. In those days,none of us spoke to the media. It wasn’t Mrs Gandhi’s style. She couldn’t care less. People said we were arrogant. But she had her own way of dealing with the media through H.Y. Sharada Prasad.

What was the essence of her political style?

She was the best communicator we have seen. I cannot remember a single day in five years when she did not send back the daily report I sent her along with a noting. Every day in Parliament,from 12.30 to 1 pm,she would meet about 50 MPs,no appointment needed. Twice a week,she had a morning darshan. Even if she didn’t meet you,you had the impression that she had made herself available. She kept several channels of communication open. Once both Rajiv and I thought someone should be PCC president. She said,if the two of you gang up,you are of no use to me. She felt we were putting her under pressure —and she was right. She didn’t appoint the person we recommended. She had her own system of evaluation. In every state,she had political and non-political confidants. I used to do the homework for Rajya Sabha nominations. Once,I chose someone from Bihar. She called me up at night,and said,but he chews paan. She said,I don’t want the carpet soiled! I asked this person to come to Delhi and meet her. He was a good party worker. When he met her,she had a good laugh. He got the nomination. The point is,she would check and countercheck.

The shrinking of the Congress through the 1990s is often traced to her systematic cutting down of regional Congress leaders in the ’80s.

The breakdown of the “Congress system” came in 1991 when Rajiv made a deal with Mulayam Singh Yadav in UP. The Congress did not shrink because of Mrs Gandhi. You cannot compare Panditji in 1952-57 with Mrs Gandhi after 1967 when she had lost half the states. Political power is about control,you have to know when to use it. How would you describe events in Andhra today? Whenever a chief minister goes berserk,it is your job to intervene. It is because of lack of political control that you (the Congress) are down from 67 to 40 in Haryana. Don’t think there is no opposition to the Congress today and since the BJP is in a mess,you can do what you want. The public will create the opposition.

Do you get the feeling that Mrs Gandhi’s ghost is still with us,whether we engage it or do battle with it?

Once you are dead and gone,you are only useful at election time,in posters. I am of the view that once a person is gone,you shouldn’t even use him or her for the sake of getting the vote. In 1985 the election was fought on her blood and sacrifice. Thereafter,there was no reason to invoke Indira Gandhi. October 31 is only a ritual remembrance. The BBC did a survey in Allahabad and Panditji came way down in the list of remembered leaders,well after Amitabh Bachchan. Politics is heartless,and there is no place to be sentimental. You cannot personalise a situation in a democracy.