I am happy that you have given me one more opportunity to convey my views through you to the people of this country. Thank you very much. 

•You agree that you are a guru and a master in realpolitik.

No, I can’t accept that. I have little experience in national politics. I have some experience in state politics. As far as Delhi politics is concerned, I am still a child. I can get some experience from you.

•From me? You can do better than that. You are a child who became the prime minister.

I am a child and that is why I was unable to run the country for more than 10 months and 20 days. Why did I lose? Did I commit any sin? Were there any corruption charges against my government? Was there any communal disharmony in the country? Why did my government lose? This means that I was unable to understand Delhi.

•You are the old fox of politics. How can you not understand Delhi?

Power brokers... the way they play; money has a role to play. I am not fit to be called a guru.

•That you leave to your chelas, because that’s why Mayawati comes to your home when she has a handful of MPs. The Left goes to her home when they have 63.

I am a humble farmer. Now Behenji, ruling a bigger state which has a population of 20-22 crores, comes to my house — it is her gesture. I can only say that much. When I became the prime minister, she was not part of our alliance. In those 13 parties, Behenji was not there. And this time when the Left withdrew its support and wanted to form an alternative to the UPA and the NDA, they took her support. I wasn’t aware that she was coming to my house. Intelligence officers who are staying there told me that Behenji is coming. So, it was a surprise to me. When she came here, more than 50-60 journalists were also there and they posed several questions to her: why have you come here? You’ve got only one or two MPs.

•And she said that she’s come here because you come from a small village.

Yes.

•Also because you are experienced. You have a very special talent. You may have lasted 10 months, but you headed a coalition which had 160-170 MPs, with the Congress supporting it from outside. That takes some talent.

It may have been only a 10-month rule, but all decisions were taken collectively. There were no voices of dissent among the 13 parties and the Congress. I do not know what made them withdraw their support.  

•Having learnt that lesson, aren’t you the most qualified person in the Third Front for the PM’s job?

Besides being a PM for 10 months and 20 days, I have also had the bitter experience of having supported the Congress in 2004, as Karnataka did not give its full mandate to one political party. At that juncture, persuaded by V P Singh and Harkishan Singh Surjeet, I extended my support to the Congress. My party suffered because of that. I begged Madam Gandhi to make Siddaramaiah the CM. The meeting between the two of us went on for five days. I have no grouse against her and I am not going to make any comment on the decision made by her and her followers, including the former CM...  

•...another of your favourite Congressmen, S M Krishna.

They were not prepared to accept our proposition. We wanted the Kashmir model.

•Half-and-half...

...Though Mufti’s party was a smaller party, at that time, he was given the chief ministership. When I pursued those lines, Madam told us, you must accept the Maharashtra model. Despite my persuasion through those five days, she stuck to her stand and on the sixth day said, ‘we will go for elections if you don’t agree’. I am not going to blame her, but the local leaders sabotaged our efforts. And how many people can she suspend from the party? By that time in Kerala, Karunakaran had already been expelled.

•What is your view on Mrs Gandhi?

Personally, I have no grouse against her, because the Karnataka issue was not because of her, it was because of the local leaders.

•If you don’t have a problem with her, then would you again think of having a partnership with the Congress before or after elections?

No. We have now thought of forming an alternative to the UPA and the NDA. I don’t know what kind of verdict will be given by the people. I am not going to claim that the new alliance we have formed is going to come to power on its own. At the same time, in the next 15-20 days how many people will stay with the UPA or the NDA...

•...In Indian politics, there are some important factors regarding who cannot go with whom: Lalu and Nitish can’t go together, Mulayam and Maya can’t go together, the BJP and the Congress can’t go together.

I agree.

•So, if you apply the principle of exclusion, whoever might come to you for support, the Third Front will need the Congress party’s support.

When Gujral’s government was removed because the DMK was involved in the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi...

•...Well, not involved...there was an insinuation in the joint commission.

What happened subsequently? They came together. That is why I say that politics in Delhi is different.

•Because this is Delhi, there is no bar against the Third Front again coming to power with Congress support. It is possible.  

I am not going to deny that.

•So you would like a situation like 1997 when the Congress was left with no choice but to support a new group. 

That may happen.

•Will the Third Front take the BJP’s support? 

No.

•But it is not ideologically opposed to taking the Congress’s support?

It’s something that both the sides need to accept. There’s friction in the NDA and the general opinion is that the BJP is sinking. In such a situation, the Congress is thinking that it can come to power on its own — nothing wrong if it thinks like that. We have formed a new alliance. We have not named it so far.

•Do you have any suggestions for names?  

No, I have left it to them.

•You have left it to the Left.

It is up to all of them — Mayawati, the Left.

•If we can just go over the arithmetic: if Mayawati gets 60 seats, you get 20, Chandrababu gets 25, AIADMK gets 30, Left gets 50, even then it does not come to more than 170-175. You cannot go with the BJP. So, you will need the Congress. Are you not in favour of not closing all doors to the Congress? 

After the verdict of the people, whatever assessment you are making may or may not come true. Take the case of Karnataka. I have to fight two national parties, the Congress and the BJP. The Congress is in Delhi and they are in office. The BJP rules Karnataka and has got all the weapons in its hands. 

•Is the Congress your only possible alliance?  

How many people are going to stay in the UPA after the elections?  

•Most of the UPA partners are rivals of the Third Front partners.

There are several aspirants for the prime minister’s post. I don’t want to name them. The names are already being discussed in the states.  

•Sharad Pawar? 

Yes. 

•Ram Vilas Paswan? 

Even in the NDA, how many people are going to remain with it? It’s a sinking boat.

•Not many remain there anyways. Except the JD(U), who else is there? Again, as per the principle of exclusion, the Akali Dal can’t come with you?

The Akali Dal has already made it clear that if somebody takes the support of the Shiv Sena, they will not be part of that. I am more particular to see in Karnataka the party which has suffered very badly... 

•...That is your party... 

... Yes, on account of having supported the Congress and then without my permission, to save the party, Kumaraswamy went with the BJP.

•He did not take your permission? 

No.

•Did you fight with him? 

It was a big issue.

•Are you a tough father? 

I suffered. I was almost dead on February 26...I have pulled him up; he has come to his senses now. 

•Did you pull him up by his ear? How did you deal with him?

With my action. I did not speak to him. My family boycotted him for two months.

•Now he will never go with the BJP. 

No. The charges they have framed against him... that he has conspired to murder a minister.

•There was a conspiracy charge against somebody when you were the PM. Sitaram Kesri had some problems... 

...That was not a problem created by me, it was a problem created by their party.

•If there’s a Third Front like situation again... the most acceptable and the most experienced person is Deve Gowda... 

Please don’t drag me into this. With folded hands, I am going to say again that I want to see that in Karnataka my party comes to power on its own. 

•If fate beckons again, Deve Gowda will be there.

I don’t know, I can’t say.

•You are not hankering for the post of the PM, but you are not ruling yourself out.

Ultimately, I do not know what’s there in fate.

•What would you like to be known as after these elections? A king or a kingmaker or will the king you make be a queen? 

I am neither a king nor a kingmaker, because mine is a small state. 

•But you are not a small man. 

Karnataka has only 28 Lok Sabha seats. To become a king or a kingmaker, you must have numerical strength in your hands. I know my limitations.

•But with the same numbers you became the prime minister.

At that time, the situation was totally different. Ultimately, what happened was fate; I can’t say anything beyond that, because I believe in God. 

•You think by becoming the PM, you were not able to focus on your state. 

Yes, I lost everything.  

•I am coming to the inevitable question: give me your view on Mayawati?  

She is trying to deal with the mafia operating in political circles with an iron hand, providing a tough administration, and the minorities and backward castes are being given due respect. These are the plus points.

•What are her negatives? 

She takes her own decisions which may not be liked by others.

•Are you saying that she has dictatorial tendencies?

Any political leader must have courage.

•Is she worthy of becoming the PM? 

The question of becoming the PM is not in the hands of either the BSP or the JD(S). The decision has to be taken by 540 Members of Parliament. When she came to my house and journalists put the same question to me, I said that I have no problem but I can’t take the responsibility of all the leaders.

•Having no problem is one thing, but do you think it’s a good idea that Mayawati should become the PM? 

I have already made it clear that I have no hesitation. It is an individual’s opinion.

•You have no hesitation in supporting her? 

Yes.

•The other view is that if she is qualified to become the PM because she is a Dalit, then why not Ram Vilas Paswan?

Being a Dalit is not the criterion. We had projected Babu Jagjivan Ram as the PM, after Morarji Desai stepped down. But what was the decision given by the country?

•From your party’s point of view, do you think it would be a good idea to project her as the Third Front’s PM candidate? Will that be your recommendation? 

I am not going to recommend on behalf of other parties.

•How do you see the next five years for India?

Both the BJP and the Congress have destroyed the constitutionally created institutions. Now, it is an era of degradation. On the day when Somnath Chatterjee was elected to the office of the Speaker, I personally expressed my greetings. I told him it is the biggest loss to the Opposition and that I was unhappy losing a person from the Opposition who has better experience than all of us. He was unable to function and he has expressed his agony several times. How many days has the Parliament functioned? Hardly 40 days. Who is responsible for this? Unless both these two national parties come forward to rectify all these things... it’s practically impossible to reason with them. The sanctity attached to Parliament is gone. The legal system is being misused. The Vigilance Commission is non-functional. Our economic policy is sinking. How many jobs have been lost? 

•One more election and hope some of this will be restored.

If all the political parties — big or small, regional or national — come to their senses and realise the blunder that they have committed, we can become a very powerful nation.

•Professor of realpolitik, speaking like the guru of moral politics. Looking forward to seeing you on the election campaign. 

Thank you very much. I don’t know to what extent I was right while expressing my feelings. It may be wrong, but I don’t want to attribute motives to anybody.

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