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This is an archive article published on May 24, 2011

‘The ideal way to bridge the skill gap is to privatise the education system’

As Pramod Bhasin steps down as CEO of BPO major Genpact,he joins The Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta on NDTV 24X7’s Walk the Talk and speaks about the changes in the outsourcing industry and his future plans.

My guest today is the poster boy of Indian outsourcing industry and a very old friend,Pramod Bhasin. There is something about your business,that is IT-enabled businesses. You guys tend to switch not just your jobs but switch to very different lives at a very young age. And you tend to make news more when you are switching than when you are there.

Technology is changing so fast and it’s deeply impacting our lives without our knowing it in many respects. Therefore,the change that youngsters grab onto is for people my age certainly incomprehensible. When you go out,you now meet people who say they don’t even have email accounts because they are only on Facebook. You look at the aspiration of these young kids. They are charged up,they love this stuff. They grab this intuitively. You have to reach a new avatar at some point of time. And I think every five years,you better learn how to re-skill yourself.

What is this itch? Many others talk of retiring in their late 50s—at 58,60. That’s the age at which many people come to life in our country. So what’s this about your business? Is this because you work with very young people or because your turnover is so high that you people always stay young?

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You work with very young people. It’s infectious—the energy,the enthusiasm,their grasp of new things. We send probably 5,000 people out every year from India. We hire them from small towns,train them and off they go and they are sitting in Seattle or New York or somewhere. There is no nervousness; they are full of confidence. It’s the new India. I have been saying this for a while. The resurgence of India is all about confidence. That rubs on us and that makes us feel much more empowered to do new things,to experiment because they are ready to go,to do it with you.

So in the 15 years since you set this up,have you seen the young change?

Completely. Fifteen years ago,when we first started this,this industry was zero and it’s worth 16 billion (dollars) or something. It’s been created in the last 15 years from scratch. When we first started,it was very much something they were intrigued by. They were perhaps nervous,living in Delhi,men and women working together was new. Today,it is a sea change. They are ambitious. Now,employees are openly saying ‘How are you going to keep me challenged? I’m young,I’m learning a lot. The world is ours out there. The company that will keep me challenged,will keep me going.’ It also means that as a company,we need to change how we think about managing this. Because their view of life is radically different from 15 years ago. They want to be the general managers. They want to make money. They want to embrace technology. They are not scared.

Actually,it shows confidence when you are willing to borrow from your future.

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Yes,none of these people know how it is like to hunt for a job. It’s a big difference. A lot of their parents are actually in the government. They are perhaps clerical staff. They are perhaps working in the PWD. They all are earning more money than their parents ever did at the age of 55 or 60. They have no fear of this. It is fantastic to watch.

You see a growing impatience,is that a part of change?

Very much. Very impatient. Perhaps immature. They have not had to slog. They haven’t gone through hard times.

You mean,you guys don’t give them a hard time at work?

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We make them work hard. But they know they have three jobs on offer at any time. We have the best attrition rate in our industry by a mile—while our attrition rate is 25 per cent,others are at 40 per cent…The ambition is dangerous because it makes India less competitive. But it’s a hard fact to explain to them. There are two or three things that I love about our people. One is openness. They ask us very frequently,‘Why aren’t you doing this? Why aren’t you helping us here?’

And that won’t happen,say,in China?

That won’t happen in China. That won’t happen in America. It won’t happen in Europe. But here,it’s open and direct. You can push back and they’ll take that.

So this confirms the view that when it comes to knowledge businesses,depth of democracy works.

Absolutely. It’s useful because it allows ideas to come up…I think all of India works incredibly hard. And it’s part of our blood,we do it easily. And I think the rest of the world hasn’t figured out how flexible we are.

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That’s what Tom Friedman said that in India,people want to work 36 hours a day,but in France,they don’t want to work 30 hours a week.

Yes. But I don’t know what is true. I go to France,Germany,America,and when you are sitting in Munich by the side of a cafe,traffic is fine,everything is fine,you are living a wonderful life…perhaps I would be tempted not to work too hard. But here,there is peer pressure and the franticness with which people work.

What’s the most inspiring thing that a youngster has told you?

Actually the most inspiring thing is a parent coming and saying,“The job you have given my daughter has allowed us to buy a home,has given her a better prospect when she is looking to get married,it has allowed her brother to study.” It has impacted the entire family in a way they couldn’t have imagined. The father of one of the girls who works with us is a cook. My driver says he will make his children study computers. And they will earn more within two years than he has earned at his age. That’s just one thing. The other elements are the phenomenal opportunities these kids see. And they take it for granted,which I think is good.

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What is the most disturbing thing that a youngster has said to you?

Many things. And I think it’s all about immaturity and entitlement. “Give me a job,give me money,otherwise I will leave you. I’m gonna quit if you don’t treat me well”. And I feel like grabbing them by the scruff of the neck and saying,“This is not how you should behave. This is not going to get you very far.” They have had five jobs by the time they are 30.

The BPO industry is like armies of young irregulars because you don’t want people lasting a lifetime.

We do. The BPO umbrella covers a thousand things. We do a lot of things and the call centre is about 10 per cent of our work. We employ nearly 800 accountants.

And the rest is efficiency enhancement.

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Efficiency enhancement and complex analytical moulding to provide information on which medicines are selling to what types of customers in America.

Is that what led you to volunteer to help Delhi’s hospitals? I think you did some work with Lady Hardinge.

Yes. And we have done it with Sanjay Gandhi Hospital. Basically,we have got a lot of experts who look at things and figure out how to make a difference. So what we have done with these hospitals is that we have gone into their emergency rooms,trauma rooms and the patient rooms and reconfigured it,studied it,seen what the hold-ups were. I don’t want to make it sound so easy because it isn’t. But it is a simple fact that by reconfiguring the routes the way patients are registered etc,you can increase the capacity 25 per cent. And it is that simple,because a patient should not wait 10 minutes at the first queue and then have to repeat it at the second queue.

In so many of our conversations over the years and now too,I see you publicly expressing dissatisfaction with the quality of education that young people are getting. In fact,you said somewhere that you can’t recruit more than 6 per cent of the people who come to you. How bad is it and why?

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Unfortunately,very bad. I think we underestimate the challenge. The teachers are wonderful,very dedicated people,but they really don’t understand what our daily life is about. Their curriculum is old,the subjects they are teaching is old,the books they are teaching from are old and they are disconnected.

Two,the discipline of teaching isn’t there. So if you go to a town hall with 500 people and ask how many got education in a very good college,the number of people who will raise the hand is less than 10 per cent. Most of the others will say,“I am self-taught and I got there because I’m smart”. So the college became a filtration process,didn’t become an education process.

Three,the fact is these children are not connected with the real world through business partnerships or work or summer training. One of the key areas that I was taught by one of my HR heads was that people have never worked for a living till they arrive at our office. So they don’t know what it is like to work.

Unlike,say,in America where kids start working very young.

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Yes,you would have delivered newspapers,washed dishes. I also think that dignity of work is something that has not gone into our heads. There is a lot of stuff about “I don’t do that kind of work and I only do this kind of work” as opposed to saying whatever work we have,we will do it. So the skill gap is massive.

And how do you bridge it?

The ideal way I would recommend is that they have got to privatise the education system for it to move fast,a bit like healthcare has moved,airlines have moved. If they allow it to get privatised,I think you will get an explosion in India.

There is also unhealthy politics. If we look at Delhi University,look at the way teachers are opposing the semester system. For me,it’s even more ridiculous than Delhi’s autorickshaw drivers going on strike opposing GPS.

Opposing a semester system is just completely losing track of the ultimate aim that they should have. I have been on the board of a number of very fine institutions,and at the board level,we are discussing ‘should we give the bursar extra money? Does the chowkidar deserve extra money?’

And the extra money is just a couple of thousands. I find that teachers and headmasters at international schools or upscale private secondary schools are paid much more than university professors in India.

Yes,university professors need to be paid. Public school teachers need to be paid much more. You know the biggest issue that these private schools face is that the fees are actually mandated by some law,and they can’t pay their teachers enough. So they lose their teachers to companies like us.

You keep threatening to move into education in some way. So tell us what’s the plan?

Somewhere in this whole conundrum of broadband wireless access,which should come in the next few years and reach 90 per cent of our villages; somewhere with those villagers getting access to bank accounts and having money to spend and somewhere in our ability to provide skill development which connects to employability,is a pony. And I am looking for that pony. Somehow,somewhere can I deliver that skill development? And it’s not about reaching 10,000 people,it’s about how we reach half a million people,how we reach a million people. And can I teach skill developments of all kinds?

So do you want to start something of your own or want to join the government in some way or are we looking at a new start-up?

I think it would be jointly with some people within some existing institution. Or I will start up on my own. I think I have to work out the model first and figure out,does it work well? I am sure a thousand people have tried this. But somewhere in that if we have access to villagers through broadband—right now,there are a lot of e-governance and other things being set up by the government that’s not being used. So the broadband capability and the sort of kiosk they have set up are just not being used.

Is that the itch that made you take this step?

I think two itches. I have done this for 14 years. I strongly,firmly believe you should go in good time. It’s against Indian ethos (laughs),but you should go in good time. Go when it’s good.

Sunil Gavaskar said when he retired after scoring that great innings of 97 on a broken pitch in Bangalore that “you should go when people say why; don’t go when people ask why not?”

Yes,and that’s obviously why I have timed it,because everybody is saying “why?” Two,you go because this country has been good to us. We should do something. I strongly believe that you should make money to deliver on social causes. I think you must do both. Otherwise,it can lose its own steam. I have to see if I can use my brains to do that. We have learnt a lot about making things efficient. Is there a way I can make parts of the government more efficient? Government services more efficient? Is there a way we can help the revenue records be delivered faster or e-governance norms established better? And the scope for what we do is massive if they let you do. Frankly,they should let you do because you can do it in a very non-threatening way.

You are complaining about being labelled as the BPOs because there are all sorts of insinuation that it’s a skill-less job where may be Pavitra Kaur becomes Patricia and speaks in a funny accent as if nothing else is required.

It’s a complete misnomer. You know,we have 800 accountants,3,000-4,000 MBAs. We are doing some of the most complex work and I think we represent more complexity than the average company in India. Ninety per cent of the companies in India are far less complex than what we do. Along with that,there are couple of other things that are wonderful. The number of new entrepreneurs coming out of our business is fantastic. Raman Roy (chairman and MD of Quatrro BPO and one of the earliest BPO entrepreneurs) came from our business. You can go across the country and you will find 20 others who came from our business. They are starting up with very small businesses with little technology applications.

So in a way these are all new IITs at a much larger level.

They are entrepreneurs. So the scale of entrepreneurship and venture capital that this is leading to is becoming a network.

It’s also a leveller,isn’t it?

Very much. These are people from all over India. And the joy of our industry is that if you know a little bit of core,you know a little bit of technology,you know a little bit of skill development in education,you can bang that together and come with a business proposition. You don’t have to be a big shot. You don’t have to own real estate. You have an office,you are up and running.

And it’s equal opportunity?

Yes,look at the women and the impact this has had on them. Fifty to sixty per cent of our employees are women. They work,I hope,in a safe environment,there is no harassment. Harassment laws in our office are very tough.

They are from all strata of society?

We recruit from all over India. And there is a full network as you may know in Gurgaon and these towns,of how the people from rest of India come in and how they are welcomed,where they stay. There are towers in Gurgaon which are full of Genpact employees. These are things I only found out later on. All these informal networking over Facebook and e-mails give them shelter,great hope and economic freedom.

They are all effectively living the life that they are working.

Yes,they are. They are living in a way that I think they may have dreamt of when they were in the little town.

Transcribed by Vikram Vishal
For full text,visit www.indianexpress.com

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