• SHAILAJA BAJPAI: Very recently, Lord Desai paid his first visit to Vadodara since the 2002 riots. It’s the city of his birth and early childhood. Lord Desai, you made a point of not going there all these years, so what made you change your mind?

I have many relatives who live there. I did not go there earlier as a mark of protest. Then, two things happened: first, Narendra Modi won the elections again pretty decisively; and second, I got an invitation to speak there. At that stage, I had a choice either to say no I will never go to Gujarat or go. Basically, I went on a private visit, gave a lecture and came away. Nobody noticed that I had not been there for five years. It’s always a peculiar decision one has to make in such cases: if you visit, are you collaborating with evil by going there? I think so: going there conveys some sort of approval. However, in retrospect, why single out one place? I come to Delhi and many more people were killed here (during the 1984 riots) than in Gujarat. No one from the Congress has apologised for that. More and more, I am of the view — as they say in films — der hai,andher nahin hai. Judgments in the Bilkis Bano’s case and the Best Bakery case indicate that slowly the wheels of justice are grinding.

I think, eventually, civil society will learn not to rely on the state for redressal of its grievances. The state does not exist to either grant human rights or to guarantee human rights. You have to fight your own fight to have them and when they are violated you have to fight and you have to fight absolutely neutrally — you have to fight for the human rights of the bad guys as well.

... contd.