Theres no question of public campaigns to choose the Chief Information Commissioner

All you old Stephanians are happy to come back to college.

Always. It sort of gives one a feeling of peace,being at home.

Because many of us who sort of went to school and college in rougher environments are quite happy to have escaped.

Well I suppose at the time when actually one left one felt that everyone is moving on,but I dont think that wed really describe it as an escape. I greatly enjoyed my stay here,and made many friends who have turned out to be lifelong friends and I think it was a time of great creativity,time that I remember with a great deal of nostalgia and a great deal of happiness.

Because many of the people you studied with,youve then worked with in public life or in your social life over the past four decades.

Yes,but I havent really,I dont remember my association so much in terms of public life but I do remember my continuing private association with people.

Because you were also active in theatre.

I was,and I had a number of people who acted with me in plays and,when I wasnt acting,I was also involved in backstage.

So I believe Kapil Sibal and you.

Kapil Sibal and I acted together.

Brinda Karat?

Brinda Karat,and as such she was not in a play with me,she was in those days Brinda Das,we werent in a play together. But I was somewhere working backstage. Radhika,now Roy. Various people. We worked…Shailaja Chandra,who was former chief secretary of Delhi,and Manju Dubey,her sister Anita,now Anita Shourie. We were all together at that time.

But you know,maybe there is a little less in there,because Wajahat made a habit of playing backstage very early,and done a great job of that through his life.

Well,I dont know if I did a great job of that because I then came onto the stage and started playing more important roles.

Isnt it like your life in the civil service? Because as long as you were an active civil servant,you were backstage and as RTI commissioner… you were in the front.

I dont know if I am very much in the front,but I tried to remain backstage. But you are right. The law being such,so revolutionary,I probably attract more attention than I deserve.

Its also a law that is tested all the time because its so new.

And the limits have not yet been tested. The limits are still being considered. There are number of cases in which youve given decisions,which Justice Shah,the Chief Justice of the Delhi High Court,has mentioned as having extended the boundaries of the right to information. But those are actually being tested because the courts are now scrutinising them,particularly the High Court of Delhi.

Right. Because one of those… you know this process of pushing at the boundaries,has actually now led to judges declaring their assets… Supreme Court judges.

Well,that has been a consequence. Although we of course had not declared that they must declare their assets.

So Supreme Court has done the right thing?

And not only that. Now as a result of that,because of what has happened,people are asking these same questions regarding other political leaders and so on.

So,I would put a simple proposition now. After the judges,why not at least central services officers: IAS,IPS,Central services,senior gazetted officers. Because they are also paid with public funds. Why should their assets not be made public?

The question of whether they should be made public or not is not the question anymore. They can be.

And they should be?

Not only should be,they can be under the law. But the question is whether they should be actually placed in the public domain. That means placed on the website for any one to see. There are pros and cons,arguments for and against…

So,the nuances… whether I as a citizen want to know what are Wajahat Habibullahs assets,I have the right to get that information?

Correct,correct.

The question is should that be available on somebodys website so anybody can see.

Right,that is the question.

What are the pros and cons?

In fact it has been mentioned… the pros and cons have been very ably examined by Justice Ravinder Bhatt in this particular case that I mentioned to you… that they can be used to harass people and so on. Because you could pick up something from that,which is otherwise innocuous,blow it up and then use that as a form of harassment. So these things may require for you to see why the person is asking that information,although under the law it is not correct you cannot ask a person why he is asking for information. Information has to be given and unless it happens to be exempted information in which case public interest,public activity and this would fall in that category. This could amount to intrusion of privacy. But if it has nothing to do with public activity or public interest? To establish that,some reasons may have to be gone into.

Whats your own view?

My own personal view is that,as one of my colleagues said,we are so transparent I hope you are not going to ask us to wear transparent clothing. If this law means that you can go so far,you can even demand that you want to have transparent clothing,obviously all my accoutrements,as you may say,have to be transparent. There is no way that I can hide portions. In my case,in the case of the information commissioners,the protection of privacy also abates. You may allow the protection of privacy in the case of your colleagues,in the case of others,but in your own case I think to be true to the Right to Information Act,one cannot really plead privacy.

So would you then appeal to your fellow IAS,IPS officers not to fear this. Because this is inevitable. This has to come now.

Certainly. Its not a question of fearing it at all. This is actually a means of strengthening governance. Strengthening government,strengthening my work.

So what are some of the things that you have noticed areas of weakness and areas of strength.

Well you see for example,Delhi has made a great deal of progress in opening up and they have had a law called Right to Information law for several years as 2002 in fact. Ration cards,these have started opening up. Initially,the argument was that we dont want to give this information because it may lead to law and order situations,meaning many of the ration cards have been issued to people who they were not supposed to be issued to… But putting this now onto the website demanding that it should be public knowledge,means if I feel that you should not have got a ration card,and your name is on the list,I can go and ask how has Mr Shekhar Gupta got his ration card,how is he a person who is BPL.. You remember the Blueline buses were causing a great deal of agitation among people. You would not have heard about it recently,because of the fact that all the information regarding the Blueline buses is now available on the department of transport who are the drivers,how experienced are the drivers,what are their licenses,what are the models,how old is it,all this is available… With the result,when this information becomes available,I,as head of the transport department,will initially be able to say all this information shows these are old vehicles,please get rid of them.

Right. So it actually becomes a force multiplier in his hands?

Yes.

Whereas the initial fear of the civil service was: this will weaken our authority.

That is true. Why? Because our mindset has been conditioned around the Official Secrets Act. When I was trained,we were taught: information that you hold is held in trust… In trust for whom? The government,and therefore never disclose it… Now of course you ask yourself: is it holding trust? It is holding trust,but for whom? The government,yes,but who is the government? The public is the government in a democracy.

So you know,interesting you talk about,when you went to the academy and were taught this. But then you headed that academy… What were you teaching the new students?

By then,of course,my attitudes had altogether changed because I had been tempered by a lifetime of service. So,because I went there only in the 2000s,I had already been in the service for more than 40 years. So at that time,every time at the valedictory,when the children would pass out Id refer to all of the officers and trainees as my children,I am a father of hundreds,and proud of it. I would say now you are going out. We have taught you to be public servants. When you go out into the field,ensure that you remain public servants and that you do not convert the public into your servants. That always used to be my advice. Because we have been talking of public service,but we have construed public service,to mean service of the government. Yes,service of the government,no doubt. But then what is a government in a democracy? In a democracy,the people are the government.

And how did you find the response? Because I will ask you the inevitable question what was the basic difference in attitude that you saw from times when you were a trainee at the academy and you were training trainees at the academy?

Well,you see trainees at the academy are much older for one thing.

Many MBAs,engineers,MBBSs.

Many MBAs,yes and many engineers,some IIT graduates,some doctors actually wanted to serve in the services. So far as the sense of commitment was concerned,that was certainly there. But they were much more realistic in their attitudes. What they could achieve and what they could not achieve. We all joined the service thinking now we are going to change the country.

So,you obviously dont buy,you know,the cynical belief that bureaucracy is a basket case now?

No,I must say I had those apprehensions when I was becoming director of the academy because I had heard all these stories. And everybody got married for dowry and things. There are dowry marriages there. But strongly looked down upon by people in the services. And its not that people have joined the services to see how much money they can make out of it. There are such cases also. In fact,in my time,I actually had to dismiss one of the officer trainees on grounds of corruption having been established… All these things happen. But that is not the general trend. The commitments are high,but the demographic background has changed. We were,many of us,large numbers of us,children of those in the service. My own father was in the army,and number of ICS officers… their children were my colleagues,my batchmates and so on. But now you find very few people who are children of those who are from the civil services.

RTI,the office of the Chief Information Commissioner has become such an iconic thing that we even have a public campaign now,almost a celebrity run campaign,to choose your successor. Have you been watching it?

Yes,yes. I watched one of your NDTV programmes the other day,talking about nomination of who should be there and who should not,who should choose and who should not. One young gentleman virtually suggested a referendum all over the country or a plebiscite or something. I mean,thats going a bit far. I am rather flattered that such a lot of importance is given to this particular position,but the importance is not to that position.

You would not agree to the idea of public campaigns?

No,no. Because theres no question of public campaigns. There is a committee,a very high-level committee not only a high level,the supreme political authority of the country. The prime minister,the leader of the opposition,and another minister.

Wajahat,you rue the fact you had to spend too much time on your desk. We know you are going to Kashmir after almost a decade now. Your job is defined as a desk job there as well,but we all know you are not going to be confined to your desk. How do you look at your new assignment in Kashmir?

Well,you see,Ill be there for only a year. Because I have to retire at the age of 65. I will try and actually set up the mechanism to the right to information. That is all I am aspiring to do. I do not wish to bring about a revolution in terms of the information that becomes accessible. I can try and do as much as I can.

But you know that Omar Abdullah wanted you there.

Omar had asked,he asked me to be there and this was quite some time ago. Then he wrote a formal letter actually inviting me to be Chief information Commissioner because the law has been recently passed. I had been sharing my experience. When their law was being evolved,when their rules were being evolved… I had tried to give my contribution. Happy to say that they have taken some of that. Not all of it,but some of it and therefore once the law came into being then this is what he asked that I may come…

There is also a view that he is inexperienced; he needs an experienced mind around him. So do you see yourself playing some of that role?

I dont know. I am sure there are lots of experienced minds around him. But if I can offer my… because I have always been friends with the family. I have not really worked under his father,except for a very brief period. But I have worked under his grandfather who I greatly admired also. And his grandmother was a lady who I greatly admired. And who was very very fond of me,I might say. When I had this accident in 93,when I nearly died outside Hazratbal,she had all three sons…

It was a terrible accident…

Because I had suffered injuries on the skull which were so bad. I mean the whole of my right side,punctured lung and hip had become… but the doctors here did a very good job. And then I went on to the US and I got further psychological treatment for that because I was suffering from what is called post-traumatic stress disorder which I hadnt heard of before. Now I know all about it. It took a long time to recover because brain injuries… you dont recover very rapidly. Its taken a long time. So to that extent,yes I dont know about brave,I like to live. Like all of us do.

Thats a very good takeaway from this conversation. As always all the very best to you. We know,wherever you are,there will be action and there will also be calm.

You remind me of the Bhagavad Gita,which talks of thirtha the centre remains calm,but contributes to action all around.

Thank you Wajahat. All the very best to you.

Thank you.

Transcript prepared by Sharika C.