• Forever?

Forever. And that requires courage. That requires struggle, patience.

• So there’s going to be no give and take this time. Because in Pakistan it is always said that there is this uneasy compact between the establishment, the army, and the politician. No longer?

I think it is a very clear departure from the past, where people used to strike a deal with the generals and do some give and take and then make compromises on principles. I think now it is principles that are more important than any political experience.

• Even you have done it the first time, when Ghulam Isa Khan was president.

No, I did not. I never entered into a deal with Ghulam Isa Khan.

• I have been a journalist for nearly three decades. But the most fascinating moments of my reporting years were while accompanying you on that train ride from Islamabad to Lahore. You had been dismissed by Ghulam Isa Khan and your supporters on the train were playing Faiz’s Hum dekhenge. And if you remember correctly, that is the song around which the movement against Zia was built. And I thought how funny it was. You were known to be close to Zia, and now your supporters are following the same tactic.

Well, I have very fond memories of your visit to Pakistan. Those were very good times. We were trying to strengthen the roots of democracy in Pakistan. And unfortunately these power-hungry generals try to derail democracy. Now, for example, in the 60 years of Pakistan’s history, 33 years have gone to the army. In fact we have dictatorship in Pakistan for 33 years and the rest of the 27 years we had democratic governments, with perhaps 15 to17 prime ministers. And three or four generals of Pakistan ruled for 33 years. So I think it’s very unfortunate. Our country was not created by Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah to be ruled by the army or the generals. It was meant to be a democratic country, ruled by the people of Pakistan. That is the tragedy.

... contd.