‘We have been dismantling our organisations,be it IB or RAW…When CBI asks for sanction (against IB officer),they will have to come up with proof’

In the last three or four years,we have managed to get into their (Maoists’) core areas such as Latehar. All the engagement that is taking place now is taking place in their strongholds. So be it Latehar or Bastar,the CRPF or Army,the engagement is happening in their strongholds. You cannot have a big military operation because we don’t know who the enemy is. We get a lot of tweets asking why don’t we let the Army go in,but who do we take out? We have 86 battalions of the CRPF in these states. We’ve tried to move all our paramilitary forces into the core areas.

There are two strategies to remove us from the core areas. One is to target soft targets,like they did in Chhattisgarh,politicians or normal people. And the second is opening new fronts,like what they have done with the SP of Jharkhand. There is no great Naxal problem in that area. In fact,there is not even a single battalion of the paramilitary forces in Dumka. After this incident,we have pulled out two battalions and rushed them to this area.

If you see the statistics of 2011,we have had a huge drop in security personnel getting killed or of Naxal violence. Overall,if you see 2011,it was a far better year than the last couple of years.

The other problem is all the funds and the paramilitary forces are given to different states. Every state has a different policy to tackle Naxalism. Whichever political party is in power has its own way of dealing. We don’t have a central policy where Naxalism is concerned. So that is something we have to adjust with the different state governments and work with them. But primarily,our target is to hit the top leadership. On the ground,we are seeing that they are not getting the kind of support that they need. Secondly,the biggest problem they are having is of arms and ammunition. That is the supply chain that we have managed to cut to a certain extent.

We can definitely do better. We can have better coordination among central forces as well as police forces. In my opinion,modernisation is in the kind of money that we have given to states that are worst-affected. After the unfortunate incident in Chhattisgarh,review meetings were held in Raipur,which the Prime Minister himself attended,and at the Chief Ministers’ conference. Our priority is now infrastructure development of the worst-affected areas. I can understand there is outrage at what happened in Chhattisgarh and what happened on the train in Bihar,as well as with the Jharkhand SP,but it is something that can’t be wished away. We have a programme in place. We will continue to have a hardline (policy) where engagement is concerned,but we will try to develop infrastructure in these Naxal-affected areas.

Manoj C G: What is your estimate of the CPI(Maoist)’s strength? And while you talked of different states having different programmes,even the Congress and the government have been giving mixed signals.

I think we are completely on board on how we are to tackle Naxalism. Where they are engaging with paramilitary forces and they are picking up arms,we will try to subjugate them. As far as rehabilitating tribals is concerned—which is extremely important and that’s what people in the party also spoke about—that is something we are trying to do. We have given a lot of money. States were given 5,000 km of roads in these areas. We are trying to make schools and hospitals. We are monitoring that development takes place in a time-bound manner.

Their numerical strength is not something I can give you immediately but it is not something that large that it is alarming. The people at the top,the leaders,are very committed. Unfortunately,the kind of movement that they have in the villages is very ruthless. That is something that never comes out in the media. For example,the way they torture informers. There is no hue and cry if a tribal is killed by the Naxals and we have proved this many times that they use civilians as human shields,including women and children. But,if there is an encounter with the forces and somebody dies,the paramilitary or the police forces are shown in such poor light as if they are the main problem.

Coomi Kapoor: There has been a lot of controversy on the CBI implicating an IB officer in the Ishrat Jahan encounter. What is your view? Do you believe that the IB should be insulated? Would it be demoralised by such action?

First of all,the CBI is inquiring into a case of encounter that took place in Gujarat,which is being monitored by the court. The CBI has named an IB officer in the chargesheet. That is a completely different aspect. They have not asked the IB for a sanction against the officer yet. When they ask for a sanction,we will reply to that question at that time.

Yes,obviously,officers of the IB are going to be a little upset if their officers are seen to be engaged in fake encounters. The IB is a very,very good organisation and it has helped this country in many ways to counter many problems. But if there is enough proof,when the CBI comes to us,we will examine it and look at it from that point of view. But it has been made political. The BJP seems to be more upset than even the IB. It is extremely unfortunate that a fake encounter took place. It is being investigated by the CBI,it is being monitored by the court,so I don’t see why the BJP should have any kind of problem with that. And it has been shown that there have been fake encounters in Gujarat before. In fact,in the Sohrabuddin fake encounter,they paid compensation to him before the court even ruled. The BJP seems to get very jittery and always seems to react whenever the campaign committee head comes under any negativity in his state. He is ready to take credit for Amul though Dr Kurien did it. But whenever any negativity happens,they want to wash his hands of it.

Swaraj Thapa: The issue is that the IB gives out alerts to various states regarding VVIPs under threat. Do you think that the IB will now think twice before sending out alerts?

We are jumping the gun. There is more hype in the public with political parties getting into the fray. There has been no demand from the CBI about the prosecution of any IB officer. When they ask us for sanction,they will have to come up with reasons and proof. The ministry will take a view on it and act accordingly. For any government officer,if it is proved that he is doing something wrong,then action will be taken.

Appu Esthose Suresh: Unlike in the West,there is no oversight for intelligence agencies. Even I&B Minister Manish Tewari once moved a private Bill for bringing the IB under an oversight body of Parliament.

Unfortunately,over the past few years,we have been dismantling our own organisations,be it the IB or RAW. And we give less credit to the kind of work they have been doing. Nobody comes to know of the good work they do. But the flaws of these organisations are magnified and everybody talks about them. There is a check and balance as far as our intelligence agencies are concerned. They report to the ministry and the Home Secretary and the Home Minister and there is action that we take. There is a system in place.

Rahul Tripathi: The IB’s role has been questioned not only in the Ishrat Jahan case,but in the Sadiq Jamal and Malegaon blast cases,where nine people were arrested and then released. Do you think there is a need to revise the SOPs?

Malegoan was investigated by the Maharashtra Police and SIT. The IB was getting into terror cases,which it was not meant to because it was busy with other things. That is why we formed the NIA. The NIA is now looking at all these cases. It is because of the NIA that in the Malegaon case,the right people were found. It is a nascent agency,but so far I think the NIA has made progress.

Rahul Tripathi: The UP government had recently asked some 20 cases to be quashed against Muslims,which the High Court stayed. Is the Central government doing anything because these people were caught under scheduled offences?

I think it is extremely unfortunate if terrorism and politics are mixed and I think anyone should tread away from that path. As far as what the UP government has done,the High Court has already passed a judgment on that. I have no idea of any intimation that we have received in those cases.

Rahul Tripathi: What is happening on the Telangana proposal?

Bifurcation of states is an extremely sensitive thing. As far as Telangana is concerned,the Congress has been committed on the issue of smaller states. We appointed the Srikrishna Committee which came out with six proposals. Before we take any decision,we would like all stakeholders to be on board. We are trying our best to take all ideas forward. We were very close to a breakthrough. In the last few days,there has been some forward movement. In fact,the Congress itself has taken the initiative. The general secretary was in Andhra Pradesh recently.

D K Singh: Coming back to the Naxal attack in Chhattisgarh,the needle of suspicion is pointing towards some senior Congress leaders.

When I went to Raipur for the first time after the Prime Minister,Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi had gone,there were rumours among the press. Political parties were putting these ideas. The NIA is investigating the case and they are investigating all angles. I think it is more of a rumour,but we will wait till the NIA comes out with its full report.

Manoj C G: Is the NIA probing the possible involvement of Congress leaders?

No,it is not probing any rumours about Congress leaders being involved. It is probing why it took place,how it took place,was there a conspiracy.

Shyamlal Yadav: You are from UP. What results are you expecting in 2014? Will the Congress retain all its Lok Sabha seats?

To be honest with you,in 2009,the results surprised me. I never thought we would get 22 seats. I think Uttar Pradesh is going to surprise me again. I think we are going to beat that mark this time.

Swaraj Thapa: There is a generational shift that has happened in the Congress. You are also part of that change. How do you assess the change,the leadership of Rahul Gandhi? Is there some tussle with the old Congress,the old ideas and values?

Not only the Congress but the whole country is going through change. 2014 is going to see the largest number of people under 30 as voters and the whole demography of the country has changed. The demographic change is going to be reflected in the politics of this country. Fortunately,we’ve managed to bring about a change,the engineer of which was Mr Rahul Gandhi who brought in a large number of younger people. It has been his endeavour to get younger people involved in politics. The older generation,for example,cannot understand that there is something known as social media. In fact,even me—I am caught in between the younger and older generations. I think leadership has to take the old and the young together,experience and the energy of the younger lot to come out with policies that encompass all.

Swaraj Thapa: What about Rahul Gandhi as prime minister?

Obviously,the Congress would like to see him as prime minister one day,but I think the job he does now is far more important and far more difficult. He is trying to build the Congress in states where it is not doing well. I think that is something he has taken upon himself. When children of businessmen come into business,they tell them to start at the floor shop. Even Rahul Gandhi started doing the same thing. He started right at the bottom.

Dilip Bobb: Narendra Modi is very active on social media,Rahul Gandhi is not. Why is he so reluctant?

The Congress party and the leadership have now started using social media and we see far more people coming in. We have a communications department within the AICC. And he (Rahul) does not believe social media is for building a person. It is for building the party. You asked about the other person. He is building himself. So that is where the difference is. It is not about I,me,myself. It is about the party you serve and the ideology the party represents. Nobody is bigger than the party. Some people want to be bigger than the party.

D K Singh: How different is the incumbent Home Minister from his predecessor?

We are following the same policies that were being carried out by Mr P Chidambaram. In fact,he took some great initiatives within the ministry and that is something my minister has not only followed but improved upon.

D K Singh: What do you think of Narendra Modi being in charge of UP? Will it make a difference if he contests from Varanasi or Lucknow?

I think the total focus of the BJP on one man shows their desperation. That he is the magic that is going to make the BJP win. How are they going to win in India? Narendra Modi. How are they going to win in UP? Narendra Modi. So obviously,it shows that they have nothing to offer to the people of this country. And it is extremely unfortunate that after Amit Shah,they need Narendra Modi also to come to UP. You can understand that the BJP is bereft of ideas of how to tackle the coming general elections. I don’t think Narendra Modi contesting from Varanasi or from Ahmedabad is going to have any impact on the politics of UP.

Manoj C G: In Uttarakhand,there is a perception that the Chief Minister woke up late to the tragedy and that the Home Ministry conducted the operations. What is your view?

Nobody expected the kind of calamity that struck Uttarakhand. As far as the response goes,we tried to do whatever possible. But in hindsight,it seems that more could have been done. But we have learnt our lessons. The ITBP,the NDRF and the armed forces did a marvellous job. I think why the government was not seen as actually doing something is because the government had ordered the best people to carry out the rescue operations.

(Transcribed by Dipankar Ghose and Shalini Narayan)