‘What happened in West Bengal is a debacle,a political defeat,not merely an electoral setback. Support to the Left parties has been eroded’

DILIP BOBB: Very soon means how soon?

How do you measure historical developments? Many problems are coming up in the country with prices soaring,with the whole issue of corruption pending. Is there a government? And do you think that we in the Left will sit silent? The land issue will become the most formidable issue—there is no limit to the struggles that will be waged and we will be there in all of them.

MANOJ CG: Mamata Banerjee has been in office for just over a month. How would you rate her performance?

One month is too little a time. Right now she is only trying to implement some of her wild promises made during the election campaign. Everywhere she went,she promised schools,hospitals,universities,etc. All that remains to be seen. I believe we must function as a responsible Opposition—at least for five years,that will benefit the Left. Besides,she alone will not run the government. There are other forces who have been behind pulling down the Left—CII, ASSOCHAM,FICCI,etc. They will put in all their expertise. And the Government of India will bail her out every time. Funds that they never gave to the Left,they will give her. Therefore,I don’t think she is in for a short spell.

MANOJ CG: Why do you say the Left should be in Opposition for a long time?

We didn’t do well being in power for a long time. A stint in the Opposition will be a good break for unlearning several things and learning new things.

SWARAJ THAPA: Immediately after Mamata took over,the Left said it would extend cooperation to her. Will this cooperation be forthcoming?

As far as my party is concerned and as far as I am concerned,I am against confrontation on every issue and at every stage. On any good thing being done by her,we will support her but if she wants to undo some of the good things that we have done,then we will fight. Now,communists are being hunted,killed,offices raided. Even INTUC in Bengal has asked her to stop trying to take over the trade unions by force and intimidation. All that will have to stop.

COOMI KAPOOR: Considering that you did well in Kerala but suffered a massive loss in West Bengal,why has nobody taken the blame for the defeat? Why is there no introspection?

Introspection does not mean witch-hunting,it doesn’t mean making somebody a scapegoat. Both collectively and individually,we must admit to the mistakes committed. Obviously,those who are at the top have dictated policy and influenced policy.

COOMI KAPOOR: So shouldn’t somebody at the top take responsibility?

The easiest way out is to say,‘I’m quitting’ before there has even been any introspection.

COOMI KAPOOR: So he shouldn’t quit if his leadership was found wanting?

He will be punished. Both Left parties,CPI and CPI (M) are holding their party congresses and discussions are taking place right from the branch level to the national level. These congresses will be held and you will see that many changes will take place. I am talking about the higher level.

RAKESH SINHA: What do you make of the suggestion of a merger between the CPI and CPI(M)?

I have been talking about this for quite long but I’ve also been saying that it takes two to merge. The response from the other side has not been very encouraging. But one good development is taking place: there is a lot of joint action and united action between the CPI and CPI (M). We share the same perceptions on political and economic issues,whether it is at the national or international level.

DILIP BOBB: What is your take on the Lokpal Bill?

I think there must be an effective Lokpal Bill. And the government has been shying away from it for a long time. Even today,they are shying away from it. I’ve gone through the government draft. It is not a draft that will really bring down anything. First of all,the Lokpal will be an investigating,prosecuting and punishing organisation. It doesn’t get to the root of corruption. According to me,one root of corruption is the nexus between the corporate houses,bureaucrats and a section of politicians. That is why half the scams happen. That root nobody is fighting. Only the Left is taking about it.

SWARAJ THAPA: Do you want MPs and Prime Minister to be included under the Lokpal Bill?

Our point is let the government come out with a first draft. It has heard so many things from different sections. For the last two or three months,there has been a raging debate going on about it. It should now come out with a real bill. Then we will take a call,whether inside Parliament or outside it. We don’t know yet what the government is going to do. They sent us a questionnaire which was an insult to the political parties,asking us to answer ‘yes’ or ‘no’. Should the prime minister be under the Lokpal Bill? Yes or no,tick mark. Should political parties be treated like that?

COOMI KAPOOR: But what is your opinion?

We have been saying this all along: Prime Minister should come under the Lokpal Bill. But according to the Constitution,Parliament itself can take action against MPs. Moreover,the Speaker is also given the authority. So you will have to amend the Constitution.

SWARAJ THAPA: So you’re against MPS being included?

We haven’t made up our minds. But all MPs’ actions outside Parliament are to be covered by the Bill because then they are like any other ordinary citizen.

ANIL NAIR: When a political party is on the wane and doesn’t do well,usually there is talk of a lack of youth leadership. Do the Left parties face this problem?

The media has caught one youth leader and you are boosting him as if he is the representative of all youth in India. But,if it is a question of only putting up one youth leader,then we can also do it. We have an All India Youth Federation and the CPI (M) has a democratic youth federation. So we have our youth leaders. They are members of the national council. None of them has become general secretary,I agree. But in the ordinary course of things,do you think the Congress general secretary would have been elected like that? He is an appointee that someone placed there from above. In our parties,they will have to fight their way up.

MONOJIT MAJUMDAR: Over a period of time,there has been a steady erosion of the Left’s base across India—and CPI in particular,say in Bihar or Punjab. Do you think there has been a failure of Leftist ideology in finding an all-India strategy?

What happened in West Bengal is a debacle. I have termed it as a political defeat and not merely an electoral setback. And I agree that the base support to the Left parties has been eroded to a great extent for various reasons including the fact that divisive politics in our country is very strong—communal,caste etc. These are factors we have to fight. We are continuously fighting against the current,and we have failed. But I don’t think it’s an ideological failure. The general mass of Left-oriented supporters has not reduced. Organisationally,we have failed.

MANOJ CG: Over the years,you have taken up issues which are not close to the masses like the nuclear deal. Was that a mistake?

Taking up the nuclear deal was not a mistake. But I have my doubts whether the withdrawal of support to the government over the nuclear deal was correct. I am one of those who doesn’t agree with it but somehow it came about and it didn’t yield good results. It would have been better if our support had been withdrawn over the issue of farmer suicides and problems of agricultural workers.

MANOJ CG: That decision was imposed on the CPI?

Not imposed. We were also part of that decision but we are not very happy with it.

SWARAJ THAPA: You didn’t object to the decision at that time regarding withdrawal of support?

To be frank,I did not object. So we are all responsible. But in retrospect,I think it was a wrong decision.

SWARAJ THAPA: The Left parties,CPI (M) and CPI have been very rigid on certain issues—they have never changed their position.

We are the only party that publicly acknowledges its mistakes. That itself is proof that we take into account changes.

SWARAJ THAPA: On FDI and foreign investment,you have very strong objections.

Much of the FDI that comes in is actually black money that comes back. You don’t even know the source of it. I read that the government is going to move ahead on the issue of FDI in the retail trade. Have they considered that there are four-and-a-half crore people subsisting on the retail business,including the roadside shops and the village square shops? If you count all their families,there are at least 12 to 13 crore people who subsist on that. And they want to replace them with malls and Walmart?

COOMI KAPOOR: You have been in politics for the longest time,since 1940,do you find that there has been a dramatic slide in the character of the people who now go into politics?

Yes,but what is to be done? There were such tall individuals like Mahatma Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru. There were many big personalities. What do we have today as compared to them?

COOMI KAPOOR: People say Manmohan Singh is a good man.

In those days,politicians were not just good men. They were men with an ideology,with a vision,with a thought. They could write books.

Pradeep Kaushal: How viable is a Third Front when your friends keep swinging towards the Congress?

You must have observed,we are in no hurry to speak of a Third Front. We would like them to make up their minds about where they are in politics. Where is the Samajwadi Party? At one time,it was with us. Suddenly,they decided to join the Congress. Till the end on the nuclear deal,we were speaking the same language. What happened suddenly? Why did they bail out the Congress?

MINI KAPOOR: You said it was a mistake to split with the Congress on the nuclear deal when you should have split with them on some other issue. Do you feel a break had to come before the 2009 elections or should you have remained with them because they could have helped you in West Bengal?

Nobody knew it would help in West Bengal at that time.

COOMI KAPOOR: Your withdrawal of support pushed Mamata Bannerjee towards the Congress.

That was not the idea at the back of our minds. The only point was,if you break with the Congress on the nuclear deal just before the elections,you can’t go to the people and explain why you broke. It is a very technical issue,many things about the Nuclear Supply Group (NSG) and so forth,cannot easily be explained. So,we broke on a point that you couldn’t go and tell the people about.

SWARAJ THAPA: You didn’t really have a choice on the nuclear deal.

We’re convinced the deal was not in our interest. The question is not about that; the question is whether the break should have been on that issue. Suppose,we had broken on the issue of farmers suicide and the agricultural crisis,that would have been understood easily by the people. But that is all water down the river Ganges.

Rakesh Sinha: Can you rule out a future electoral tie-up with the Congress?

I don’t think there is any possibility. More and more they are adopting policies which are directed against us. It is all anti-people. For corruption also,I hold them responsible. You talked about Manmohan Singh being a man of great integrity,I am willing to agree with you but the point is that the same Manmohan Singhji presides over a Cabinet about whom you can’t say the same thing. And nobody can feign ignorance that he doesn’t know what his colleagues are doing. It is like saying I’m a very honest man but I’m presiding over a gang of thieves. What does it mean?

MANOJ CG: Will the CPI have a new general secretary?

Yes,there will be a new general secretary once I’m out.

COOMI KAPOOR: Do you think it’s good to have fixed office terms or do posts have to be lifelong?

The CPI has a constitution that says the general secretary and the state secretaries can be there for two terms. It can be extended to a further two terms if a three-fourths majority wants it,but never more than four terms. And each term is three years. So I have enjoyed the maximum of four terms,that is twelve years.

SWARAJ THAPA: When you decided to withdraw support to the UPA,did Manmohan Singh say he would resign if you withdrew support on that issue?

He said many things. It would not be fair to reveal all that now.

Transcribed by Jayant Sriram
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