What Pakistan does ultimately is our sole concern

•Shekhar Gupta: right. And this was a heartbreaker.

Pranab Mukherjee: This is definitely a heart breaker.

•Shekhar Gupta: Where you angry with Pakistan those three days?

Pranab Mukherjee: No …we are getting some information…we have doubt…but ultimately the pool of information came later..

•Shekhar Gupta: Later on…so first four days it seems Pakistan responded reasonably well…President Zardari made those statements and things started to change…

Pranab Mukherjee: Exactly…

•Shekhar Gupta: What happened?

Pranab Mukherjee: That I do not know. Maybe…anybody’s guess… I can not allow myself to indulge in guess…holding a constitutional office…but the fact of the matter is that there was an attempt to divert the issue…Even the talk telephonic conversation which we had with Mr. Qureshi. Of course I did not take any risk… I spoke to him over the telephone from the written text. Every word was recorded in my telephone. PM talked to their PM,their President. There after it appeared to be correct. But I am unable to understand,what really puzzles me…is that hoax call???how is it possible that the foreign Minister of a country will directly ring the President of another country…and particularly to a person..I have met only once Mr. Asif Zardari in my life till now…and that is when I went to Pakistan after their govt came and that time he was a leader. He was not even President. I met Prime Minister,the then President Musharaff..i met Mr.Qureshi my counterpart…and I had a courtesy call to pay homage to Benazir Bhutto..and I went to his…I think it may be house or his party office…and had a little discussion..

•Shekhar Gupta: Pranab if I can take you back to that discussion…

Pranab Mukherjee: This is the first time…Let me complete it…this is the first time I had an interaction with him…Therefore the short point which I am trying to drive at is that we were never close to each other that I would just pick up the phone and talk to the President of a country

•Shekhar Gupta: And moreover in our country whatever else we may or may not observe…we observe protocols…niceties…

Pranab Mukherjee: Exactly…yesterday what happened…the day before yesterday…the PM suddenly became ill…even during his presence it is not unusual that I ??handle a number of talks…but he is the head…he is the leader of the delegation…the big question was what to do about the delegation level of talks fixed on 24th…so it was decided and this is the first time we have created a precedent by requesting the President of the republic to lead the delegation…and the speech and everything was so carefully drafted

•Shekhar Gupta: As if it was the PM’s

Pranab Mukherjee: That it does not appear to be ….no….she just simply welcomed …Substantive discussions I carried out with the permission of the President of Kazhakstan

•Shekhar Gupta: So this is a constitutional innovation

Pranab Mukherjee: Therefore this is the position we strictly adhere to…so hoax call to my mind was designed to divert the attention. And thereafter Indian Air force says activities..???nothing was built up…and everybody knew it…

•Shekhar Gupta: American diplomats told us that such things happen we can see that nothing is happening. So it was deliberately done.

Pranab Mukherjee: It was deliberately done. Then it became quite clear that they will not do anything. And here I must make a very small observation that there is no tension. That to make efforts to ease the tension. Only the tension…if the so called tension exists…i don’t know what tension exists now… what I am suggesting that if they take action as I have outlined then there is no reason why there should be tension. There should be no problem

•Shekhar Gupta: Tension also goes up when you say all options are open.

Pranab Mukherjee: No when I said that all option are open…it was in the context that we do not know what action ??? to take. At what point of time…i do not say options means simply one option….there are various options…diplomatic options are there…other options are also there…but I just said that other options are also open…

•Shekhar Gupta: So as such you do not see any tension…

Pranab Mukherjee: I do not see any tension

•Shekhar Gupta: No troop movement…? No activity on the borders.

Pranab Mukherjee: No troop movement…from our side I do not know what they are doing from their side. Of course we keep information but from our side we haven’t done anything to cause any tension to…

•Shekhar Gupta: If I can simplify it…can we divide Pakistan’s response in three phases- first phase sounded sincere and of shock. Second phase sounded like diverting attention and being obstinate and third phase do we again see them coming around a little bit…last few statements

Pranab Mukherjee: I would not like to make any comment on the gradation of their reactions…I am telling you this very frankly…coz I always believe that the taste of a pudding is in the eating. What they do ultimately is concern of ours…if they do fine…

•Shekhar Gupta: But last few statements we find them encouraging? Last week or ten days…

Pranab Mukherjee: That’s what I am saying that I am not grading it coz I do not know…again keeping in view the complexity of their systems…and other things…that what??? Turn it will take…because what we want…we want…fine earlier they were saying that this is just information…the material we have handed over to Pakistan and to all other countries….in more details to Pakistan to help them carry out investigation

•Shekhar Gupta: They are saying less detail to them…more detail to others…

Pranab Mukherjee: No they said that this is just information,no evidence…but later on they amended that…fine…then let it help them to come and thereafter …earlier on we are hearing their reactions only through the media and when I expressed that we have regular diplomatic contact why it not being used…then of course they called our high commission and said whatever they had to say…so this channel can be used…there is no problem in that …

•Shekhar Gupta: Initially they also said that we heard from CIA,so we will tell CIA coz we have a relationship with them..

Pranab Mukherjee: No…I am not aware of that thing…

•Shekhar Gupta: No…they made a public statement….the CIA has given us a dossier and now

Pranab Mukherjee: Dossier first we gave them…

•Shekhar Gupta: Right. But they try to talk through CIA.

Pranab Mukherjee: On 5th of January we called the High Commissioner and handed over the dossier

•Shekhar Gupta: Now they are saying that we authorised the Chinese to talk on our behalf…we gave them?? blank cheque…

Pranab Mukherjee: No I do not know…first my reaction was that it is…

•Shekhar Gupta: When the Chinese vice minister came did he say that he was talking on Pakistan’s behalf…

Pranab Mukherjee: No

•Shekhar Gupta: No…so this statement also confused things…

Pranab Mukherjee: I do not know what they mean by it…but…he expressed their view…

•Shekhar Gupta: In what sense

Pranab Mukherjee: No…their formulation is both countries are friendly and we expect them to sort out issues on their own…

•Shekhar Gupta: But China overall did not play a non constructive role…

Pranab Mukherjee: You know up to now they have just stated …when I had telephonic discussions conversation with foreign minister…Yang Jeichi ??and when vice minister came here and mer Shakar and had a discussion with him. I had just a few minutes courtesy call,substantive talks took place between foreign secretary and their vice minister and it did not appear that they are just ??? winning somebody’s case.

•Shekhar Gupta: This was a period of great stress. We can see the PM,now he has undergone a major surgery. It must have been very stressful for him also over this month.

Pranab Mukherjee: Some stress must be there otherwise I don’t know why it has happened. Here I can only say that the doctors have done a good job.

•Shekhar Gupta: To sort of round off our discussions on this Pakistan issue,the three points you raised- 1. they have to close off all infrastructure of terrorism,and?/(not) facilities. Second,they have to punish the people involved in the Bombay attacks and third they have to hand over to us all those who have committed crimes in our country and are sitting there. And those include Indian citizens as well as Pakistani citizens. Indian citizens like Dawood Ibrahim and Pak citizen like Masood Azhar. And on that there are no dilutions. Now,two questions,one,would you say that Pakistanis should not think that this is business as usual. That an incident happened,India is angry for some time and then with a few concessions you can carry on for the next 4,5 years until another big one happens.

Pranab Mukherjee: No the problem is different this time. It is not always ??? we started 2008 with a series of attacks. It was not one. There was terror attack on Delhi,terror attack inJaipur,terror attack in Ahmedabad,terror attack in Bangalore and the last one was on Mumbai.

•Shekhar Gupta: ??But many of those had Indian involvement

Pranab Mukherjee: No I am not talking of Malegaon. I am not talking of those type of things.

•Shekhar Gupta: No..Indian Mujahideen..who were Indian Muslims…

Pranab Mukherjee: You know IM…that somebody may…what is coming now…somebody may claim that I am IM… this was also claimed by that… but later on it was found out…

•Shekhar Gupta: So we have doubt that this IM is not fully Indian

Pranab Mukherjee: Of course.

•Shekhar Gupta: And we have evidence.

Pranab Mukherjee: This case we have found out

•Shekhar Gupta: That Pakistanis could be involved

Pranab Mukherjee: No… Pakistanis were involved… not could be…

•Shekhar Gupta: No..not Bombay

Pranab Mukherjee: The first claim was an organisation…

•Shekhar Gupta: Deccan Mujahideen…

Pranab Mukherjee: Right.

•Shekhar Gupta: So this time we expect something tangible in return. And this is not an election thing till april

Pranab Mukherjee: No election has anything to do with it.

•Shekhar Gupta: So Pranab da…foreign ministry,finance ministry,a lot of PM’s responsibilities now…although he is getting better…he is getting better isn’t he?

Pranab Mukherjee: No he is getting better. I think doctors said that most of the work he can attend after four weeks,some work after 2 or three weeks and completely he can take over after six weeks.

•Shekhar Gupta: right. But yet given the number of GoMs you head what is the hierarchy of importance in your life,what takes most of your time and attention and thinking time. Is it foreign policy,economy or West Bengal Congress.

Pranab Mukherjee: West Bengal Congress does not take…hierarchy because basically government business gets top priority. Whenever I am in govt or whenever even I am out of Govt public issues dominate my life. I have no personal life even though I am a family man. But it has never dominated or encroached. And days together it may happen living under the same roof hardly I see my wife though she is sick. Because sometimes in the morning or late night I normally leave my table,working table,after one in the morning. And before I go to my bedroom I just see,touch her forehead she is in deep sleep.

•Shekhar Gupta: In foreign policy we have a situation where somebody is flying his own Airforce planes low over the cities. Or inventing calls from you. On the economy we have this big global crisis. So what worries you more now?

Pranab Mukherjee: No,it is not compared no? Every issue is important and so far the global impact of the meltdown and its impact on India Prime Minister has already taken some measures. Those are in place. And as and when…

•Shekhar Gupta: Do we expect more?

Pranab Mukherjee: No basic fundamental strength of the Indian economy is there. It is not that we are coming down to 2% growth or negative growth. Yes it may not be 9%.

•Shekhar Gupta: Which figure do you believe for this year.

Pranab Mukherjee: Around 7.

•Shekhar Gupta: Above or below?

Pranab Mukherjee: I think it will be around. I don’t know what one percent or two decimal points this side or that side. But around 7% I expect coz up to the third quarter it has become. In the fourth quarter if there will be no serious slippage we will be able to??

•Shekhar Gupta: Sir we talked about all the ministries we handle. What about politics?

Since you have a lot of spare time you also have to handle your party’s politics,alliances

Pranab Mukherjee: No always we will have to do it. Because these are closely linked na? One is not delinked from the others. Whenever I have been in government some party responsibility has always been entrusted on me. And Mrs Gandhi has given… four five things for instance I can tell you drafting of the party manifesto… I am doing it from 1977.

•Shekhar Gupta: What is your view of the Left now? Because nobody knows the Left better than you in non left parties.

Pranab Mukherjee: No Left we cannot have an alliance with…pre election alliance is not possible…

•Shekhar Gupta: In West Bengal?

Pranab Mukherjee: No where…coz left strength are essentially in three states. Essentially. Out of the 60 members they are having as many as 55 are coming from these three states.

•Shekhar Gupta: West Bengal,Kerala and Tripura

Pranab Mukherjee: West Bengal,Kerala and Tripura. And in other areas we had some adjustment with them. They got 4- 5 seats.

•Shekhar Gupta: And in all three,you are the rivals.

Pranab Mukherjee: And in all these three- Kerala surely,Tripura yes and Bengal,Mamta is emerging as the bigger opposition party compared to ours. But nonetheless our presence is also there.

•Shekhar Gupta: Mamta is also Congress by another name actually

Pranab Mukherjee: Yeah. exactly

•Shekhar Gupta: So do you see the likelihood of them again coming back with you in the alliance after elections?

Pranab Mukherjee: Depends on numbers. After all democracy is nothing but numbers.

•Shekhar Gupta: No…but if numbers require…you don’t see that the ideological divide has so much that it wont be possible? Bitterness has become so much after the nuclear deal.

Pranab Mukherjee: No I don’t think that bitterness has gone up. Political differences,diversions of view,ideological differences,are there.

•Shekhar Gupta: But bitterness is there or not there?

Pranab Mukherjee: I don’t think so

•Shekhar Gupta: You don’t think so. Because you know when you were negotiating till the last moment it must have been frustrating that you were not able to close the deal with the Left

Pranab Mukherjee: no… that is true,I felt bad. But,it did not leave any bitter taste in my mind. We parted company sadly.

•Shekhar Gupta: Will you tell us something about the last meeting you had with Jyoti Basu on this?

Pranab Mukherjee: No I tried…what I am telling you very frankly…i tried my best but I failed. I tried to persuade him that let them walk out. Let them not vote

•Shekhar Gupta: Against the govt

Pranab Mukherjee: Against the govt. let them walk out,let them protest; let them make their full speeches. Let them not vote with the BJP. I did not say do not vote against Govt because govt policy they are opposing so I requested them that let them not vote with the BJP.

•Shekhar Gupta: What was his view?

Pranab Mukherjee: That I should not tell …for it is them to decide…and it has appeared in the media…you must have seen it …I would not like to comment on what he told me

•Shekhar Gupta: But do you think that if the Left had taken a more broad minded view it would have been possible to make a break without taking an adverse position voting with the BJP. Was it a mistake on their part?

Pranab Mukherjee: It is from the hindsight… no need of guessing it…what has happened has happened. let us take it on the face of it.

•Shekhar Gupta: Have you found this Left more difficult to deal with since Prakash Karat took over? Because it is a different generation of leaders. Coz you had an equation with your generation of leaders or maybe older than you

Pranab Mukherjee: No I must say Prakash was very courteous,understanding and decent

•Shekhar Gupta: But…

Pranab Mukherjee: Ideological differences are there. He is ??? ideological oriented man there is no doubt in it. As it was Surjeet as it was Jyoti Basu

•Shekhar Gupta: But Surjeet and Jyoti babu

Pranab Mukherjee: but at the same time with the age and experiences they have gathered much more thing but so far Prakash is concerned my dealing with him or his dealing with PM or Mrs Gandhi

•Shekhar Gupta: Was courteous?

Pranab Mukherjee: Was absolutely perfect

•Shekhar Gupta: And professional in a way. Politically professional. So come 2009 if need be you wont say that there is no scope for

Pranab Mukherjee: I wont make any comment on it coz I know democracy is nothing but numbers. And I do not guess in numbers

•Shekhar Gupta: But its not like Congress and BJP can never come together.

Pranab Mukherjee: I can just quote a famous historical saying that if ?? Napoleon could have come together perhaps history of France would have been different.

•Shekhar Gupta: it’s true. It would be for India’s politics that the two parties talk.

Pranab Mukherjee: Of course it’s always better. It is not that that we have stopped talking. You are saying that it is not enough. I don’t know what the yardstick of judging whether it is enough or not. Talks are there

•Shekhar Gupta: I mean if you are saying that the two parties are talking I think that is reassuring coz if anything has to happen at a substantive level whether between Congress and the BJP,India Pak,India US,India China,then Pranab da has to be involved

Pranab Mukherjee: I am telling you as the leader of the House every session,during the session I am to talk to Mr. Advani,I am talk to M. Jaswant Singh. And even after the Mumbai attack had a discussion with Mr. Jaswant Singh,informal of course. So several times talks take place.

•Shekhar Gupta: Well thank you very much we had a brilliant conversation. I know you have a million more important things to do so I am so grateful you found the time.

Pranab Mukherjee: Thank you