We conducted ourselves as per the need of the hour. SAD had a major role to play in the way the events shaped up...

•... and the way the people of Punjab were disillusioned due to terrorism ...

Yes, because the losses were enormous. We went back in time. We faced losses pertaining to economy, life and material. There were no gains.

•Common people understand this. Today in Punjab, nobody wants to talk about those days. It’s like a bad dream.

Yes...

•Democracy is a great healer.

People understand, they have their own mind.

•But people should have a democratic way of speaking out their mind. They can’t speak through the police. It can’t be an AK-47 versus another AK-47. The police haven’t wiped out terrorism from Punjab.

No, that method would have been wrong. The police could prove to be effective only when people supported them. People’s support is vital. Like in Jammu and Kashmir, terrorism is still prevalent because of public support. Terrorists get places to hide; no one complains about them; there are jungles where they can hide. In Punjab, there aren’t any jungles, so terrorists had to seek refuge in people’s homes. Thus, when people decided not to support them, terrorism was wiped out from Punjab.

•There was never a criminal case against you during any of your jail terms. The toughest was after Operation Blue Star when you were kept in solitary confinement in Pachmarhi.

All of them were equally bad — Coimbatore, Dehradun, Pachmarhi. When I was imprisoned in Coimbatore jail, the state was under Governor’s rule. When Karunanidhi took over, I was shifted to a jungle near Dehradun. Nobody was allowed to meet me. Around 1,000 cops used to guard me. I often told them that if a cop asks me to sit at a spot, I’d keep sitting there. Where would I run away?

•You were in solitary confinement in Pachmarhi, with only animals around.

Yes. Pachmarhi is the best place in India.

•I heard you had tamed some animals there.

Yes, to pass time.

•Are you an animal lover?

Yes. I am fond of trees as well. I used to ask people to bring seeds and flowering plants for me. Even the jail personnel appreciated that.

•I’ve heard you had tamed a cat in Pachmarhi.

That used to keep me engaged. What could I do all day long, with no newspaper, no radio; TV was a distant dream.

•Tell me about your animal companions in Pachmarhi.

I had tamed a kitten; she grew up and became pregnant. I have observed a cat’s character very closely. A male kitten wants to kill another male kitten. Very few male kittens survive.

•You’d joke that when those kittens bore children, only then you’d be released.

That was a different time.

•But you weren’t ready to meet anyone either. R D Pradhan, who was the Home Secretary at that time, has written in his book that he went to meet you and you bolted your door.

I told him that he was wasting his time. Without sorting out issues, they tried to tempt me. I told him that there was no fun in talking to anyone individually. We wanted to talk as a group.

•During your talks with Bhindranwale, in 1983-84, did you try to convince him that he wasn’t following the right path?

No. Frankly, we didn’t have good relations. Since Longowalji was our chief, it wasn’t my job to start such talks.

•But you were the most recognised face in all of India. People thought you should have asserted your moral responsibility at that time.

The chief has to be followed. We were a disciplined party and followed Longowalji. Sant Longowal took a decision and got nothing in return; he embraced martyrdom.

•Did you feel that there was no point in talking to Bhindranwale?

I didn’t meet him often. During those few meetings I had with him, views were exchanged.

•Did you ever feel Punjab had gone out of control? All your candidates lost, pro-separatist parties won.

There are ups and downs in politics. But we knew that ultimately everyone wanted peace.

•When the anti-Sikh riots broke out in 1984 and reporters like me covered them, we felt this can never heal.

This speaks loads about people’s memory. Those weren’t mere riots; it was a massacre, because the Congress fuelled the killings as well as the attack on the Golden Temple. Yet, so many Sikhs vote for the Congress party.

•Despite this you demanded more Sikh recruits in the Army in the beginning of this interview. And we are walking in a war memorial right now. Does it mean that you have no bitterness now?

When an elderly man dies, we mourn for 10-15 days and then get over the grief.

•I had gone to meet Longowal sahib in Udaipur. He had said that between New Delhi and Amritsar, there are thousands of Sikh corpses hanging from trees.

At that time it seemed so. If it was a small loss, we could have overlooked it. But the attack on the Golden Temple and the 1984 killings can’t be wiped out of memory. The Congress planned all that. And they said that when a big tree falls, the earth shakes.

•But the people of Punjab and the Sikhs have put all this behind them.

Memories remain, but the new generation doesn’t feel the pinch, as in the case of Germany. Those who remember, remember.

•During those days, did your Indian commitment ever shake? Did you ask yourself why we are in this country?

Even today we feel Punjab is not getting its due. India’s big worry today is food. We removed that worry with record procurement this year. But again, agriculture gets nothing. They say they’ll look after those states whose production is less. Electricity will be given to those states where villages haven’t been electrified yet. Roads will be built where there are no roads. If we have good roads, have we committed a sin?

•Did you feel that as Sikhs we’ve made a mistake?

Never. But we regret the role played by successive Congress governments. Our contribution to the country has been phenomenal. Look at the list of martyrs in this war memorial. You’ll see so many Punjabi names.

•The reason could be that of all the political parties in India, the Akali Dal is the most anti-Congress party.

Naturally.

•You never met Rajiv Gandhi when he was the PM. You’ve never spoken to Sonia Gandhi. You had very little contact with Indiraji.

I met her once or twice as the chief minister of the state when she was the PM.

•During those days, in the anti-Congress fronts that were formed, Jan Sangh and CPI(M) were both with you.

We always try to align with anti-Congress parties.

•The Congress will always be an adversary.

Akalis can never merge with the Congress.

•Advaniji says that in politics, think of the opposition as your adversary not enemy.

Each party has a different role to play.

•Do you perceive the Congress as your adversary or enemy?

The Congress has offended Punjab. We don’t have to seek revenge from them, so why call them enemies. But they aren’t doing justice to us. Recently, I told Sharad Pawarji that agriculture is important for the people of Punjab. Hence, please give us Rs 100 crore for establishing an agriculture university. After all, the country would have starved, had there been no Punjab. So, please encourage us.

•Over the years, has Akali politics become religious?

Religion is different from politics. I am very religious; I pray twice a day. Every person should follow his religion ardently. For us, religion and politics go hand in hand, but that doesn’t mean we are communal. No religion propounds separatism. Each religion teaches equality.

•In the last elections, very few religious leaders of your party got tickets and the ones who got them, lost the election. I am talking of those leaders who are called jathedars. Modern people have won, so does this indicate a change in Punjab politics?

Some jathedars have won too. In our party, a jathedar is a president. Akalis believe that as Sikhs, we should follow the Sikh discipline. If you are a Hindu, you should follow your Hindu discipline.

•Critics in your party say that there was a time when Akali Dal was very democratic from within. Now, it has become a family party.

It’s not a family party. Whoever works hard is promoted. Those who criticise us are followers of the same principle. The Congress wanted to make Sonia Gandhi the prime minister and now her son is being projected as the future prime minister. Are they qualified to advise us? You are a journalist, so your children will also evince interest in journalism.

•But they won’t become editors straight away!

Gradually, they will reach that position.

•Your son is the most powerful person in your party today.

He won parliamentary elections. He worked to form the government. The party promotes those who work hard.

•You are from a different generation. So are Karunanidhi and Jyoti Basu. You are all great titans of our politics; you people have provided our politics its centre of gravity. You have played a big role in reducing the power of Article 356.

Now people have started pressurising governments. This pressure goes against those who are unjust to the people. Earlier, a government could be dissolved easily. Newspapers carried the news as editorial for a few days and slowly people forgot about it. Now, we have arrived at a stage where the people just don’t forgive.

•But they can’t dismiss them now. This is a victory for the country and India will become stronger with it.

There should be a true federal system in the country. We have always advocated for more power to the states. But when we say this, we are tagged as separatists. Estimates of link roads to be constructed in states are passed in New Delhi. Funds for minor irrigation projects come from New Delhi. If states are given funds, they can use them according to their priorities. We have our own priorities, and the Centre sends funds for something else. The funds are wasted in this manner. The Congress has a bias towards the poor. Seventy per cent of the poor don’t get any relief. Economic condition and housing are both neglected. The poor can neither get medical treatment nor good education.

•Where is Punjab headed?

The first year has been satisfying in terms of our achievements.

•What about your power shortage and poor infrastructure?

We are working on that. In one year, we’ve got Punjab another international airport. Bathinda has got a new civil terminal. Sahnewal, near Ludhiana, will be used for domestic flights. A company wants to build a private airport at Ludhiana. All roads are being made into four and six-lanes. We faced several tests after coming to power. The BJP-SAD won four major corporation elections with a thumping majority. This was followed by block samiti and zila parishad elections and bypolls. Urban support came our way in the form of heavy turnout in the bypolls in Amritsar district. In the rural elections, we have won nearly 90 per cent of the seats.

•Starting so young, after 58 years in public life, are you a satisfied man — with the state of your party, your state and the country?

Absolutely. A party worker wants to see his party in power. We have had two-three governments in Punjab. When people support a politician, his confidence surges.

•Are you satisfied with the state of the nation?

No. I want the poor to be uplifted.

•For that, one important thing is infrastructure, so that everyone has access to water, electricity...

Also, employment; we are opening skill centres. The major share of the country’s resources should be allocated to the poor. Unless the poor are comfortable, we can’t claim that our country has progressed. With air service, bridges, roads, the country can be said to have progressed completely. These things are important, but the poor need food, shelter, and education. An overwhelming share of the budget should be spent on these areas.

•If you see the Sikhs and the Punjabis, there is an environment of balle balle. Punjab has taken the country by storm. Sikh culture is going strong...

That’s pleasant to see. From the outside, everything looks glossy, but there are poor people in Punjab as well. Dalits and small-time farmers are under debt. The farmer works so hard for the country, but no one acknowledges his efforts.

•You are the senior most leader of the farmers. You’ll surely do something for them.

We should encourage those who work hard; otherwise they would become despondent. The farmers should be given quality education and skill centres should be established to hone their skills.

•So, will you be focusing on quality education for the poor in Punjab?

In the last five years, not a single teacher was appointed to any government school in Punjab. We have appointed 14,000 teachers. We’ve spent Rs 50 lakh on each school to improve their infrastructure.

•Your most important achievement is that you have brought stability and maturity to Punjab’s politics. The whole country looks up to you for not just your intellect but also your patience and patriotism.

This is my duty.

•Thanks for this interview.

You’re welcome.