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 • Hello and welcome to this special edition of Walk the Talk. My guest today is, well, there are many ways to describe him — ageless angry young man of Mumbai, cartoonist, and the Lion in Winter... so let me ask Balasaheb Thackeray which one does he prefer.

Call me a tiger.

• A tiger for all seasons?

All seasons, yes. There is no season. When I met Narendra Modi, I said here is a Gujarat lion. He liked it, enjoyed it.

• Considering that not many people say good things about him...

When there was some problem in the BJP (after the Gujarat riots) and every one was hammering on the Ahmedabad riots — no one was talking about Godhra — and everyone was demanding Modi must go. I was the only one to have asked Modi what he wanted to do. He said, “Yes Balasaheb, I am still thinking...” I said, “No, do anything but do not quit.” I told BJP, “If Modi goes, Gujarat goes...”

• Where would Gujarat go? Did you mean politically...

Today, they are actually ruling in Gujarat. They had, how many states at that time? Now all the states are with Congress. It could have been Gujarat also.

• You mean the BJP would have lost?

Of course. Definitely.

• So did Mr Advani listen to you?

He must have listened to me because Modi is still there... and doing well, going very fast.

• But remember, Atalji had gone to Gujarat and talked about Raj Dharma. There was something to that talk also. There was an issue of Raj Dharma in what happened in Gujarat, wasn’t there?

Raj Dharma? Huh! What’s Raj Dharma? There is no such thing anywhere in the country. There is only one dharma, Muslim dharma. Nothing else.

• When Modi was the chief minister, he had to make sure that every citizen under his rule was safe. That’s Raj Dharm. He failed in that. Do you agree?

What mistake has Modi made? Can you tell me? When you are attacked, you have to retaliate, you can’t keep quiet. Who started the riots first there in Ahmedabad? Who attacked whom? First came the Godhra incident, that was also equally cruel, ugly. Then came Ahmedabad. People then retaliated.

• Are you saying that Muslims started the riots in Ahmedabad?

Yes, certainly.

• Not many people believe that. There are Hindu groups which have a different view on Godhra.

They were all kar sevaks in the train. They had nothing to do with politics. They were coming back from Ayodhya and they were attacked.

• And you think it is legitimate for people to retaliate like this and the state to look the other way?

Where is the question of legitimacy in this? They were all people, and people have feelings...

• Mobs and people are okay, but we are talking about the state and the chief minister.

What’s a mob? When people come together...that’s a mob.

• But it is the responsibility of the state to stop mob fury...

Gandhi was assassinated in 1948 by Godse. It happened in Delhi, but there were reactions not only in Maharashtra but also in Calcutta. What had all those Brahmins done (in other pasts of the country)? For one Brahmin (Godse), you blame all the Brahmins. The same way, what happened in Godhra had a fallout in other parts...

• So, are you saying that what happened in Gujarat was OK or will you at least accept that it was something that should not have happened?

I am not a Gandhian. What is violence or non-violence? You choose non-violence if it suits you, you take the fullest advantage of it. It is politics.

• Will you elaborate? I did not understand it.

What did you not understand?

• That when it suits you, you take the fullest advantage of it.

Yes, to save your face.

• Are you saying that Gandhi did that?

No. Gandhi was Gandhi. We are now all disciples or...

• But why do you say you are not a Gandhian?

Today, what’s going on is all Gandhigiri, it’s not out of any love of Gandhi. Rest assured, there are no real followers of Gandhi left in India.

• But what’s your disagreement with Gandhi?

Going to that samadhi of Gandhi or Nehru or Indira Gandhi ... it’s all theatre... yeh saab natak hai. What’s here (pats his heart)? There is nothing here. It’s all a show. There are no principles left, nowhere. Not even in the government, the Congress government.

• But why do you say you are not a Gandhian? Do you have some disagreements with Gandhi?

Yes, I do.

• Tell us about them.

To understand me, you have to go back to 1948, or even before that. Have you ever thought of Godse’s action, why he decided to kill? He got annoyed, upset, very upset. Even after giving a chunk of our land to Muslims, you were giving Rs 55 crore to them. Godse thought that if this old man lives any longer then he will ruin the country.

• And you think Godse was right in thinking so?

You have to think. Wasn’t he?

• I don’t think he was right...

When the British were about to give India freedom, Churchill said, “Don’t give freedom to that naked fakir, he will ruin the country.” And that’s what has happened. We are seeing the fruit of that mistake today.