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•I'll tell you the first time I sort of got sensitised to your writing. It was when General Pervez Musharraf came to India for a summit, almost a decade back. He said that the way to solve the India-Pakistan problem is a step-by-step approach. First step, you recognise a problem, second step, you call me, third step, look at solutions. It was all vertical. And a friend of mine sent me an email the next day, because I was on some TV discussions about this visit, saying, 'Hey man, Gen Musharraf needs to bone up on de Bono.'

Well, I know Gen Musharraf, and I've been in Pakistan, I've had breakfast with him.

•Because he's not one given to lateral thinking. He's . . . very military.

But even in those steps you say, in a sense, he was mirroring that.

•So tell us about your meeting with Gen Musharraf.

Well, I was invited by his minister of higher education. And I gave several talks about teachers teaching our work in school. Even in the madrassas in Pakistan.

•What's the most interesting thing that Musharraf said to you?

It's difficult to say if there was any particular thing. But I'll tell you something very interesting. When you see him on television, behind the desk, he looks quite short. When he's standing up, he's as tall as me. Well, now, I didn't look to see if he has platform shoes, but I told him, 'I thought you are very short.' But he's as tall as me. No, but I can't remember any particular thing. But I liked him.

•You advise individuals, you advise states, you advise corporates. Can individuals, corporations, and states think alike? Or think the same way?

Well, the answer is, 'Yes.' And, again, the point I make is: design rather than judgment. For example, in the Israel-Palestine situation. Here we have two of the most intelligent groups on the earth, and for 60 years, they've been fighting each other. Palestinians know that Israel is not going to disappear; Israelis know Palestine is not going to disappear. So we need to design a way forward. Just a suggestion: you let them vote in each other's elections, let them have half a vote each. So the Israelis will never elect Hamas, the Palestinians will never elect Sharon. They'll end up voting constructive leaders who will design a way forward. And that's design. Instead of saying, 'You're bad and if you don't stop doing this we're going to bomb you.'

•Did you ever apply your mind to the India-Pakistan Kashmir situation?

No. But if you invite me to, I will.

•Because we've heard the same lines now, for more than 60 years. And anyone who would think differently is called a traitor on either side.

Yes, yes. Perhaps you need to do what happened with the oil industry. Remember when Paul Getty was in Saudi Arabia, they created the neutral zone. I don't remember what the benefits were, but it was a neutral zone. Maybe we need to create a neutral zone.

•Dr de Bono, reading up on you, one is struck by the fact that you were trained to be a medical doctor. You would normally have expected a psychologist or psychiatrist to get into this business. But why a medical doctor?

Well, this is very important. Because in medicine, I was dealing with complicated systems. From that I developed ideas on self-organising systems. I then applied these principles to the brain: how the brain works, how neural networks work. And that was the basis for my thinking. I said that if the brain is good at this -- making patterns and using patterns -- then what it's not good at is changing patterns. And that was the basis for lateral thinking. So the fact is that I was relating thinking to the way the brain actually works. For the first time in history. It was not philosophers just playing with words. That's why the medical thinking became very important.

•Well, I think even if you had studied engineering, you would have come up with wonderful ideas, because you have a brilliant mind.

Well, it's true, (studying) engineering and systems behavior might have done that too, but in medicine I learnt how the brain functions and from that, on the whole, I say, 'We've learnt so little about thinking.' In schools, in top levels, in diplomacy. What I propose to do this year is to set up a palace of thinking.

•You have a centre for thinking in Malta.

This is going to be much bigger, much more iconic. Giving thinking the dignity it deserves, and then, periodically, have international meetings on issues. Because the United Nations is totally incapable of new ideas. Because in representative bodies, people have to represent their countries. So to provide alternatives, possibilities, new thinking, I'm going to do that in this year and the coming years.

•Well Dr de Bono, I know you turn 75 next month. All the very best to you. Keep getting younger and younger in body and mind.

Thinking keeps you young.

•And keep thinking for all of us. Thank you. Wonderful to have you on the show.

Thank you.

(The transcript was prepared by S.B. Easwaran)

editor@expressindia.com